I can’t believe how many shitlibs there are in here, using this opportunity to guilt people with an actual conscience into voting for this piece of shit as if he has some sort of moral high ground.
What is the lesser evil when both the DNC and the GOP work directly for the exact same military industrial complex?
The real villain here is the system that makes any party outside of the two party system completely irrelevant: first-past-the-post.
We have two Republican parties. One of them just so happens to pretend better at being inclusive..but they secretly also wish that the poor could be burned to fuel their mega-yachts.
Maybe I should switch to hexbear. I feel like I’m on 2016 Twitter, arguing with Neera Tanden’s astroturfing PPI team and they’re trying to brainwash other leftists to think that Single Payer is somehow bad.
And yet the United States continues to slide into fascism despite having elected Biden. What horrific Trump era policies did the Democrats even bother to repeal after they won in 2020 and held both the senate and the house?
They are still funding the construction of border wall segments. They never repealed the Republican tax cuts. They have done nothing about the concentration camps on the southern border for fuck's sake. They never codified Roe v. Wade, we literally lost the right to abortions while Biden was in office. They could have stacked the supreme court but they didn't.
The Democrats and the Republicans form an obfuscated one party system in the US. Republican leadership aggressively ramps up the oppression of marginalized people, then Democratic leadership does nothing to restore our rights nor proactively prevent the same thing from happening again. Instead they just use their time in office to suck all of the energy out of people's movements that could actually effect change.
And much more importantly than all of that, Republicans and Democrats are virtually identically evil when it comes to foreign policy. When the US is dropping bombs on you and destroying your country, you'll tend not to care whether it was a Red MAGA or Blue MAGA administration pulling the trigger.
In some specific cases it might be worthwhile to vote for Democrats in local elections where there exists much more leeway for politicians to stray from the party line, but voting for them in national elections is just lending your voice to legitimizing their bullshit good cop/bad cop routine they play with the Republicans.
Yes, that is a feature of democratic systems. Parties want to get voted in. So they bend their programs to achieve that goal.
I live in Germany and here all parties are leaning further and further to the right, since the AfD (nationalist-conservative, some party members Neo-nazi) party is gaining in almost every poll.
If all that was at play here was mere democracy, we'd have an M4A candidate. The population is solidly to the left of either party on the majority of issues, but they get no voice because liberal democracy is an exercise in choosing between the options that capitalists have picked for you.
Your bubble/echo-chamber is solidly to the left of either party on the majority of issues.
The bulk of the population is mostly fine with or approving of a right-shift in media policy.
I don't know what you're on about wrt "media policy" but I'm not saying Americans are communists. It's been demonstrated in survey after survey that social-democratic positions are generally the most popular.
Fascism is a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement, characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation or race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy.
To me, it sounds a whole lot like both Biden AND Trump can be considered fascists….especially with this idea of secret military aid to Israel that I’m reacting to here.
Looking at it from an economic definition perspective though Biden represents the financial bourgeoisie and Trump represents more industrial bourgeoisie
I’d actually argue that Trump comes from the real estate bourgeoisie but I agree on the Biden characterization. Biden never saw an MBNA donor contribution that he didn’t love (like in 2008 when he sold all future generations out for a $250,000 payout from MBNA).
I just don’t see how real estate wealth translates to industry. In general, many of Trump’s areas don’t fully align with the Republican establishment who, in my observation, generally are from real estate, energy, and industry as you mentioned.
Thinking about it more, it seems like real estate has a lot of overlap in both parties.
Trump obviously comes from real estate, but his current money-making on a direct level is decidedly media-driven. The question is who gives him money and who benefits from his policy, and I think the answer is that he has a relatively larger amount of support from the petite bourgeois.
It is a fact that the economic policies of Nazi Germany were mass privatization and public-private partnerships, both of which are the hallmarks of neoliberal policy. Your denial of this is factless. Not that it matters to you, because you don't care about facts. You're just an empty headed smuglord with Facts and Logic(tm) aesthetics
If they’re both equally evil internationally and mostly equally evil domestically, am I allowed to vote for who is less likely to remove more human rights from women and trans people?
I would never tell anyone that they should vote, I understand people’s reasons for not doing it. Selfishly, I’m going to give myself the best chance of having access to life saving health care until I’m no longer of child bearing age.
Of course! I'm just standing up to speak my mind. We all are allowed to vote exactly as we see fit. I live in MA where I have the opportunity to vote with my conscience, but in a place like AL, SC, or KY, my strategy wouldn't be helpful to those groups of people.
The two party system makes democracy in the US an absolute sham.
If Hitler had actually held an election and the only options were him or a Strasser party, I don’t think it would be immoral to vote for the Strassers. But I also don’t think it would be a moral obligation if you had no reason to believe they would stop the Holocaust.
A vote for Hindenburg was indeed a vote for Hitler, so I think the moral is that caping for a lesser evil instead of trying to build good (and those two things are normally opposed) is not a constructive behavior. I couldn't give less of a shit who you personally vote for, that's the consumer-lifestyle version of political engagement. I do care somewhat what you advocate for, because promoting the lesser evil is still promoting evil over good (using the overly moralistic phrasing of the adage).
Withholding support from Nazis (on any substantial level) is plainly the better option if you want to not need to keep choosing between two Nazis.
The 1932 election had a communist option, it’s unlikely that there will be one on my ballot.
We’re not going to overthrow fascism in America at the voting booth. I’m not trying to convince anyone to vote for Biden, that’s his job and he’s not doing it very well. I’m also not going to shame anyone for doing something easy like voting in the hopes that it makes them a tiny bit safer.
I would shame someone if they thought that voting democrat is a step towards bringing about positive change or parroted some bullshit about how we can get more concessions from Democrats than Republicans. If voting is the extent of your political engagement, you aren’t opposing fascism.
I can’t believe how many shitlibs there are in here, using this opportunity to guilt people with an actual conscience into voting for this piece of shit as if he has some sort of moral high ground.
What is the lesser evil when both the DNC and the GOP work directly for the exact same military industrial complex?
The real villain here is the system that makes any party outside of the two party system completely irrelevant: first-past-the-post.
We have two Republican parties. One of them just so happens to pretend better at being inclusive..but they secretly also wish that the poor could be burned to fuel their mega-yachts.
i can’t see any of them, which means a lot of them must have been banned already from hexbear lol lmao
Maybe I should switch to hexbear. I feel like I’m on 2016 Twitter, arguing with Neera Tanden’s astroturfing PPI team and they’re trying to brainwash other leftists to think that Single Payer is somehow bad.
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8 out of a total of 165 comments remain.
Went and checked the lemmy.ml version of the thread, and they sure weren't lying about the shitlibs.
Glory to the moderators
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This is nonsense. MAGA is a fascist movement. Don't let both being neo-liberal blind you.
And yet the United States continues to slide into fascism despite having elected Biden. What horrific Trump era policies did the Democrats even bother to repeal after they won in 2020 and held both the senate and the house?
They are still funding the construction of border wall segments. They never repealed the Republican tax cuts. They have done nothing about the concentration camps on the southern border for fuck's sake. They never codified Roe v. Wade, we literally lost the right to abortions while Biden was in office. They could have stacked the supreme court but they didn't.
The Democrats and the Republicans form an obfuscated one party system in the US. Republican leadership aggressively ramps up the oppression of marginalized people, then Democratic leadership does nothing to restore our rights nor proactively prevent the same thing from happening again. Instead they just use their time in office to suck all of the energy out of people's movements that could actually effect change.
And much more importantly than all of that, Republicans and Democrats are virtually identically evil when it comes to foreign policy. When the US is dropping bombs on you and destroying your country, you'll tend not to care whether it was a Red MAGA or Blue MAGA administration pulling the trigger.
In some specific cases it might be worthwhile to vote for Democrats in local elections where there exists much more leeway for politicians to stray from the party line, but voting for them in national elections is just lending your voice to legitimizing their bullshit good cop/bad cop routine they play with the Republicans.
Hear hear!!! My sentiments exactly! Thanks for putting it into words better than I could have.
Yes, that is a feature of democratic systems. Parties want to get voted in. So they bend their programs to achieve that goal. I live in Germany and here all parties are leaning further and further to the right, since the AfD (nationalist-conservative, some party members Neo-nazi) party is gaining in almost every poll.
If all that was at play here was mere democracy, we'd have an M4A candidate. The population is solidly to the left of either party on the majority of issues, but they get no voice because liberal democracy is an exercise in choosing between the options that capitalists have picked for you.
Your bubble is.
This is much less snappy than it is grammatically ambiguous.
Let me rephrase: "Your echochamber is"
Could I interest you in adding a direct object to the sentence?
Your bubble/echo-chamber is solidly to the left of either party on the majority of issues. The bulk of the population is mostly fine with or approving of a right-shift in media policy.
I don't know what you're on about wrt "media policy" but I'm not saying Americans are communists. It's been demonstrated in survey after survey that social-democratic positions are generally the most popular.
Exactly. Literally every poll confirms this. But they aren't interested in facts. They're only into Facts and Logic(tm)
The bulk of the population doesn't give a shit about any of this lol
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To me, it sounds a whole lot like both Biden AND Trump can be considered fascists….especially with this idea of secret military aid to Israel that I’m reacting to here.
Looking at it from an economic definition perspective though Biden represents the financial bourgeoisie and Trump represents more industrial bourgeoisie
I’d actually argue that Trump comes from the real estate bourgeoisie but I agree on the Biden characterization. Biden never saw an MBNA donor contribution that he didn’t love (like in 2008 when he sold all future generations out for a $250,000 payout from MBNA).
I just don’t see how real estate wealth translates to industry. In general, many of Trump’s areas don’t fully align with the Republican establishment who, in my observation, generally are from real estate, energy, and industry as you mentioned.
Thinking about it more, it seems like real estate has a lot of overlap in both parties.
Trump obviously comes from real estate, but his current money-making on a direct level is decidedly media-driven. The question is who gives him money and who benefits from his policy, and I think the answer is that he has a relatively larger amount of support from the petite bourgeois.
Yeah that’s true. They found a cash cow in him, though I’d still consider him an outsider (especially after his political capital has been used up).
High fixed capital
Neoliberalism is exactly the economic policies of fascism. Just because they have "civility" aesthetics doesn't change that
This is your feeling, no fact.
It is a fact that the economic policies of Nazi Germany were mass privatization and public-private partnerships, both of which are the hallmarks of neoliberal policy. Your denial of this is factless. Not that it matters to you, because you don't care about facts. You're just an empty headed smuglord with Facts and Logic(tm) aesthetics
If they’re both equally evil internationally and mostly equally evil domestically, am I allowed to vote for who is less likely to remove more human rights from women and trans people?
I would never tell anyone that they should vote, I understand people’s reasons for not doing it. Selfishly, I’m going to give myself the best chance of having access to life saving health care until I’m no longer of child bearing age.
Of course! I'm just standing up to speak my mind. We all are allowed to vote exactly as we see fit. I live in MA where I have the opportunity to vote with my conscience, but in a place like AL, SC, or KY, my strategy wouldn't be helpful to those groups of people.
The two party system makes democracy in the US an absolute sham.
In terms of federal representatives, that's rather like a poor white German supporting the Strassers.
If Hitler had actually held an election and the only options were him or a Strasser party, I don’t think it would be immoral to vote for the Strassers. But I also don’t think it would be a moral obligation if you had no reason to believe they would stop the Holocaust.
A vote for Hindenburg was indeed a vote for Hitler, so I think the moral is that caping for a lesser evil instead of trying to build good (and those two things are normally opposed) is not a constructive behavior. I couldn't give less of a shit who you personally vote for, that's the consumer-lifestyle version of political engagement. I do care somewhat what you advocate for, because promoting the lesser evil is still promoting evil over good (using the overly moralistic phrasing of the adage).
Withholding support from Nazis (on any substantial level) is plainly the better option if you want to not need to keep choosing between two Nazis.
The 1932 election had a communist option, it’s unlikely that there will be one on my ballot.
We’re not going to overthrow fascism in America at the voting booth. I’m not trying to convince anyone to vote for Biden, that’s his job and he’s not doing it very well. I’m also not going to shame anyone for doing something easy like voting in the hopes that it makes them a tiny bit safer.
I would shame someone if they thought that voting democrat is a step towards bringing about positive change or parroted some bullshit about how we can get more concessions from Democrats than Republicans. If voting is the extent of your political engagement, you aren’t opposing fascism.