I was there, I can form my own opinions, thanks. It was hyperbole, but that was the general level of arguments being made.
If you want left unity, it was a nonsensical way to behave. It was just more sectarianism. It does make sense as a way to behave if you just wanna argue... So thats what I assume the real intent was.
They posted an inflammatory meme meant to stir shit up between folks that share 99% of the same values and should be working together instead of having slapfights on the internet about shit that happened 100 years ago under entirely different material conditions, and for the record I piled on against them too as did some of our other anarchist comrades because it was reddit tier brainrot. If someone post a meme similarly lazily and unfunnily making the same joke about "anarkiddies" we would remove it and chastise the poster.
What do you want me to say? Sorry I'm not as angey as your standards demand? That all that dogpiling and toxic behavior was chill and fine because of a fucky meme? I declare hexbear.net the sovereign leader of all of leftism, I'll say whatever you want, just chill tf out
I'm very chill, I was just pointing out why it seems like we are aggressive.
The removal of downvotes on our end mean people have to actually make the effort to tell you that you are wrong and why, and not just downvote and move on.
Trust me it is a much better system than downvotes, we have had a long time with developing policies to foster productive discussion.
When someone is so aggressively wrong or clearly posting troll bait, then of course they will perceive the pushback as aggressive as well.
I lurk on hexbear often. I don't usually comment because of... Well, this kinda shit, since it is hard to describe.
And I don't need you to explain to me how you think I'm misunderstanding how aggressive you are. I can form my own opinions about how aggressive hexbear user behavior is.
I don't usually comment because of... Well, this kinda shit
Were you gonna comment something like this? *Edit: Because this is what we are responding to, and what you were getting lumped in with in the other thread. Unless this is what you are holding your tongue from saying while you lurk hexbear, then you're gonna be fine, you don't need to be fucking terrified of posting on hexbear if you can be respectful.
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I'm a real person in the year 2023, I'm not some caricature from 1920.
Idk if you are just messing with me now but I'll say it again: I didn't like that meme either. Don't fucking try to "gotcha" me with it or its points again because I don't fucking agree with it
I don't comment on hexbear because I don't want to be talked down to and disrespected for no reason. Many users are extremely condescending and rude.
"this kinda shit" is in reference to these comments you and other hexbear users are making right now.
That is another thing that seems to happen on hexbear often. Wild misinterpretations of what people are trying to say, and regrettable arguments based entirely on misunderstandings.
Maybe ask for clarification before you embarrass yourself.
Maybe ask for clarification before you embarrass yourself.
Did you not read that fucking thread? He won't explain anything! I still have no idea who the Chinese "intellectuals" he is crying for are unless he means literal rightists.
Edit to clarify: Because that is what “this kinda shit” is in response to. If you aren’t about to post something like /u/db0 posted then you aren’t about to get the response that /u/db0 has gotten.
Motherfucker you responded to me. To my comments. You are actively doing this kind of shit right now without me saying any of that. If you wanna complain about the meme go do it to someone who agrees with it.
I didn't mean to come off that aggressive. But in my own defense, you already told me, earlier in this exact comment chain, that you disagreed with the meme, so I figured it was obvious I was not accusing you of agreeing with it. That was my whole point: you shouldn't equate hexbear venom in the comments under that meme with our normal, unprovoked behavior or act like you might get the same venom for whatever innocuous shit you would say. That's still demonizing us.
I expanded both threads and ctrl-f'd your name, after you stressed the point. Everyone was civil with you. Maybe one person was a little stern. My comment with the image wasn't even there yet when you gestured vaguely at hexbear and said "Well... this kinda shit." What shit? The obvious interpretation was that you were referring to the very conspicuous hexbear dogpile against /u/db0's meme and not to some lukewarm responses you got offscreen buried in the comments.
I was drafting a conciliatory response when I saw this comment. I still apologize for how my earlier comment came off. I was not saying that meme represented your feelings. I was emphasizing that it didn't, and pointing out how inflammatory something has to be for hexbear to come down on it this hard.
You are acting condescending right now, assuming I can't possibly have valid opinions about hexbear based on anything else I might have seen. You've decided my entire opinion has to be based on this and the previous thread, I guess because I used a vague phrase instead of detailing all the ways different individual hexbear users can be condescending and not worth getting invloved talking to. I very much regret getting involved in this part of the conversation too, but that is another thing hexbear users often do, make wild accusations about people that want to disengage to bait them back in to defend themselves.
I'm also not required to only judge based on how people treat me directly! Seeing how people treat other people is indicative.
I'm certain I said something wrong by mistake in this that you can dig into and write a whole essay about how it makes me the worst lib in the world but
I'm only gunna bother with one more comment here, @GarbageShoot@hexbear.net and @Nakoichi@hexbear.net sorry you don't get responses, I'm fuckin tired and done with people. Anyone who comments at me about this shit after this comment I'm just going to ignore and block.
on further thought, I'll just add that I think we're both defending ourselves and then taking each others' defenses as attacks to defend against, and it's a vicious cycle.
I still feel hurt over db0's two posts tbh. It's not even the meme, it's the witch-hunt feeling of that meme being broadcast across all of lemmy to a receptive audience we cannot talk to.
I'm sorry I stressed you out and put you on the defensive. I actually felt the same way. I don't think either of us intended it. From one communist to another, I hope there are no lasting hard feelings.
it's the witch-hunt feeling of that meme being broadcast across all of lemmy to a receptive audience we cannot talk to.
This I feel is why many of us jumped on the original meme in the first place.
We are so close to being vulnerable to a new wave of McCarthyism and not just the "tankies". It is already starting with people getting fired or prosecuted for supporting Palestine.
This shit is fucking dangerous and the people engaging in it don't understand the stakes.
our only defense is not getting divided, which is why this stuff scares me, seeing how easy it is.
I'm optimistic though, I think the red scare stuff is harder in real life, when people are in a real situation with other real people instead of alone at a screen.
I guess federation in this case means blocks don't do much, still allowing you to reply and such. I would never have seen this after your "ok." If I didn't get curious to check how it worked.
I'm glad you sorta realized I'm not trying to antagonize anyone. I want leftist cooperation - I think the original meme was bad and unproductive, partially because that kind of thing can generate even further unproductive infighting, and then hexbear proved that correct. This is an "everybody loses" situation IMO and getting caught up in it in a way I had to try and defend myself was extremely unpleasant and unintended.
I also apologise for any excessive rude behavior on my part. I am not great, especially when upset, at being polite, or being coherent in general.
I'm very chill, I was just pointing out why it seems like we are aggressive.
I mean i am on hb since the start and criticism of anything ml was always met with aggression, not only if it was inflammatory. That1s why joeysteel was banned for starters.
the meme being posted was "modern MLs are bloodthirsty monsters who will kill you if they ever get in power"
And y'all had a chance to prove the meme wrong by not turning it into a dick measuring contest with spamming equally shitty sectarian shit that on hexbear would get you kicked out (anarchists are worthless, anarchists can't coordinate, etc.),. And it always ends like this. Anytime i mention that in the hungarian revolution the workers councils were a way more significant factor than any western influence and they literally set up groups to hunt nazis the same agresszive smug shit arrives from people who never read anything about the topic apart from the fucking Aptheker book. I feel like the ML userbase (who are right about basically anything when it comes to capitalism) would rather off themselves that even admit that any ml leader even marginally engaged in self-serving abuse of power. Of course anarchists who aren't familiar with the site wont be happy.
All three are examples of ml leaders who took huge Ls abusing their power that nobody is afraid to criticize. I'm not familiar enough with the boiled baby guy to say whether he was actually an ml or if it was another pol pot situation.
Gonzalo was a self-proclaimed Maoist, part of the reason we say ML-MZT and not MLM in English
If you want criticism of a self-proclaimed ML (and don't count Pol Pot because that claim was not even paper thin), Khrushchev is someone we all hate who has slightly more of a claim to the title, though naturally I would argue that he is a revisionist.
If you want criticism of an actual ML, we criticize Stalin and Mao all the time, but usually not on "selfish abuse of power" terms because that generally isn't what they did compared to simply being a bit reactionary or foolish (often right and left deviationism, respectively, though that is a slight stretch for the Four Pests case).
Naturally, if it is an ideology we believe in, then actions we disagree with are generally going to be outside of what we consider those principles to be.
I don't know much about the Hungarian uprising. If the Soviet response was unjustified and draconian when they could have worked something out, that's fucked up.
not only is that not what we said, but db0 actually said that about us
I was there, I can form my own opinions, thanks. It was hyperbole, but that was the general level of arguments being made.
If you want left unity, it was a nonsensical way to behave. It was just more sectarianism. It does make sense as a way to behave if you just wanna argue... So thats what I assume the real intent was.
the meme being posted was "modern MLs are bloodthirsty monsters who will kill you if they ever get in power"
When you view a group as evil, that view tends to result in double standards for behavior, which is what you're doing.
I'm probably going to dip because I'm too mad to be civil right now
Hi, if you read what I said I also did not like the meme originally posted. I'm just trying to be constructive about it instead of angey and loud.
Edit: "angey" was a typo but it makes me laugh
They posted an inflammatory meme meant to stir shit up between folks that share 99% of the same values and should be working together instead of having slapfights on the internet about shit that happened 100 years ago under entirely different material conditions, and for the record I piled on against them too as did some of our other anarchist comrades because it was reddit tier brainrot. If someone post a meme similarly lazily and unfunnily making the same joke about "anarkiddies" we would remove it and chastise the poster.
What do you want me to say? Sorry I'm not as angey as your standards demand? That all that dogpiling and toxic behavior was chill and fine because of a fucky meme? I declare hexbear.net the sovereign leader of all of leftism, I'll say whatever you want, just chill tf out
I'm very chill, I was just pointing out why it seems like we are aggressive.
The removal of downvotes on our end mean people have to actually make the effort to tell you that you are wrong and why, and not just downvote and move on.
Trust me it is a much better system than downvotes, we have had a long time with developing policies to foster productive discussion.
When someone is so aggressively wrong or clearly posting troll bait, then of course they will perceive the pushback as aggressive as well.
Yes I know about the downvote situation.
I lurk on hexbear often. I don't usually comment because of... Well, this kinda shit, since it is hard to describe.
And I don't need you to explain to me how you think I'm misunderstanding how aggressive you are. I can form my own opinions about how aggressive hexbear user behavior is.
Were you gonna comment something like this? *Edit: Because this is what we are responding to, and what you were getting lumped in with in the other thread. Unless this is what you are holding your tongue from saying while you lurk hexbear, then you're gonna be fine, you don't need to be fucking terrified of posting on hexbear if you can be respectful.
I'm a real person in the year 2023, I'm not some caricature from 1920.
Wtf? No?
Idk if you are just messing with me now but I'll say it again: I didn't like that meme either. Don't fucking try to "gotcha" me with it or its points again because I don't fucking agree with it
I don't comment on hexbear because I don't want to be talked down to and disrespected for no reason. Many users are extremely condescending and rude.
You said "...Well, this kinda shit" and I pointed out what "this kinda shit" was in response to
"this kinda shit" is in reference to these comments you and other hexbear users are making right now.
That is another thing that seems to happen on hexbear often. Wild misinterpretations of what people are trying to say, and regrettable arguments based entirely on misunderstandings.
Maybe ask for clarification before you embarrass yourself.
Comments like defending ourselves against misinformation? Or is it because of the amount of comments?
Did you not read that fucking thread? He won't explain anything! I still have no idea who the Chinese "intellectuals" he is crying for are unless he means literal rightists.
Motherfucker you responded to me. To my comments. You are actively doing this kind of shit right now without me saying any of that. If you wanna complain about the meme go do it to someone who agrees with it.
I didn't mean to come off that aggressive. But in my own defense, you already told me, earlier in this exact comment chain, that you disagreed with the meme, so I figured it was obvious I was not accusing you of agreeing with it. That was my whole point: you shouldn't equate hexbear venom in the comments under that meme with our normal, unprovoked behavior or act like you might get the same venom for whatever innocuous shit you would say. That's still demonizing us.
I expanded both threads and ctrl-f'd your name, after you stressed the point. Everyone was civil with you. Maybe one person was a little stern. My comment with the image wasn't even there yet when you gestured vaguely at hexbear and said "Well... this kinda shit." What shit? The obvious interpretation was that you were referring to the very conspicuous hexbear dogpile against /u/db0's meme and not to some lukewarm responses you got offscreen buried in the comments.
I was drafting a conciliatory response when I saw this comment. I still apologize for how my earlier comment came off. I was not saying that meme represented your feelings. I was emphasizing that it didn't, and pointing out how inflammatory something has to be for hexbear to come down on it this hard.
You are acting condescending right now, assuming I can't possibly have valid opinions about hexbear based on anything else I might have seen. You've decided my entire opinion has to be based on this and the previous thread, I guess because I used a vague phrase instead of detailing all the ways different individual hexbear users can be condescending and not worth getting invloved talking to. I very much regret getting involved in this part of the conversation too, but that is another thing hexbear users often do, make wild accusations about people that want to disengage to bait them back in to defend themselves.
I'm also not required to only judge based on how people treat me directly! Seeing how people treat other people is indicative.
I'm certain I said something wrong by mistake in this that you can dig into and write a whole essay about how it makes me the worst lib in the world but
I'm only gunna bother with one more comment here, @GarbageShoot@hexbear.net and @Nakoichi@hexbear.net sorry you don't get responses, I'm fuckin tired and done with people. Anyone who comments at me about this shit after this comment I'm just going to ignore and block.
on further thought, I'll just add that I think we're both defending ourselves and then taking each others' defenses as attacks to defend against, and it's a vicious cycle.
I still feel hurt over db0's two posts tbh. It's not even the meme, it's the witch-hunt feeling of that meme being broadcast across all of lemmy to a receptive audience we cannot talk to.
I'm sorry I stressed you out and put you on the defensive. I actually felt the same way. I don't think either of us intended it. From one communist to another, I hope there are no lasting hard feelings.
This I feel is why many of us jumped on the original meme in the first place.
We are so close to being vulnerable to a new wave of McCarthyism and not just the "tankies". It is already starting with people getting fired or prosecuted for supporting Palestine.
This shit is fucking dangerous and the people engaging in it don't understand the stakes.
our only defense is not getting divided, which is why this stuff scares me, seeing how easy it is.
I'm optimistic though, I think the red scare stuff is harder in real life, when people are in a real situation with other real people instead of alone at a screen.
Oh yeah this is mostly terminally online bullshit (for now) but it's still dangerous.
Or they do
I guess federation in this case means blocks don't do much, still allowing you to reply and such. I would never have seen this after your "ok." If I didn't get curious to check how it worked.
I'm glad you sorta realized I'm not trying to antagonize anyone. I want leftist cooperation - I think the original meme was bad and unproductive, partially because that kind of thing can generate even further unproductive infighting, and then hexbear proved that correct. This is an "everybody loses" situation IMO and getting caught up in it in a way I had to try and defend myself was extremely unpleasant and unintended.
I also apologise for any excessive rude behavior on my part. I am not great, especially when upset, at being polite, or being coherent in general.
ok.
I mean i am on hb since the start and criticism of anything ml was always met with aggression, not only if it was inflammatory. That1s why joeysteel was banned for starters.
Yeah, he was banned for being too aggressive you fucking nitwit, i.e. violating community norms
Irony is dead
There are different levels of hostility and this isn't that community
And y'all had a chance to prove the meme wrong by not turning it into a dick measuring contest with spamming equally shitty sectarian shit that on hexbear would get you kicked out (anarchists are worthless, anarchists can't coordinate, etc.),. And it always ends like this. Anytime i mention that in the hungarian revolution the workers councils were a way more significant factor than any western influence and they literally set up groups to hunt nazis the same agresszive smug shit arrives from people who never read anything about the topic apart from the fucking Aptheker book. I feel like the ML userbase (who are right about basically anything when it comes to capitalism) would rather off themselves that even admit that any ml leader even marginally engaged in self-serving abuse of power. Of course anarchists who aren't familiar with the site wont be happy.
How many people did we shoot in the thread? Are you that easy to pander to?
Ask them about Khrushchev and co's destalinization or 70s Mao or Gonzalo.
afaik hexbear unanimously hates Gonzalo, which is throwing me off trying to interpret this comment. not being snarky
All three are examples of ml leaders who took huge Ls abusing their power that nobody is afraid to criticize. I'm not familiar enough with the boiled baby guy to say whether he was actually an ml or if it was another pol pot situation.
Gonzalo was a self-proclaimed Maoist, part of the reason we say ML-MZT and not MLM in English
If you want criticism of a self-proclaimed ML (and don't count Pol Pot because that claim was not even paper thin), Khrushchev is someone we all hate who has slightly more of a claim to the title, though naturally I would argue that he is a revisionist.
If you want criticism of an actual ML, we criticize Stalin and Mao all the time, but usually not on "selfish abuse of power" terms because that generally isn't what they did compared to simply being a bit reactionary or foolish (often right and left deviationism, respectively, though that is a slight stretch for the Four Pests case).
Naturally, if it is an ideology we believe in, then actions we disagree with are generally going to be outside of what we consider those principles to be.
I don't know much about the Hungarian uprising. If the Soviet response was unjustified and draconian when they could have worked something out, that's fucked up.
Do you have any reading recommendations?
It quite literally was tho
No it wasn't.