Sounds like they unified against you fairly well.
I've only experienced that from them since I've known them. Not one wants a good faith discussion until you grovel to their fundamentalist tripe. Unity to them means blindly following their half-understood theories of centuries-dead men, and anyone who questions a lick of it gets the 4chan swarm treatment.
OP literally did not attempt to have any discussion of any kind, and explicitly said they had no interest in doing so
that's the definition of "not in good faith" homie
Can't exactly have a good faith argument if the post gets brigaded.
No, good faith argument is being a debatelord, as was explained to me at length in the last post. People who just happen to see the post and respond are all brigading if they come from an instance that has a cross-post. Them's the rules.
Don't bullshit me that there is a proper way to argue with that fucker, he demonstrated at length that there was not.
Fuck off, all you can do is call names and be smug, there is no point talking to you
You literally came into my thread and started insulting me to third parties, baby. Don't act all huffy when you take what you give.
You're clearly angry because I didn't engage with your sealioning. Take a break. Not everyone owes you attention.
Yes this post is aimed at the instance I am on and you mischaracterize ld the heat you got from that meme only coming from "tankies" please grow up.
The meme was also racist as fuck
take what you give
who broadcast a meme to all of lemmy arguing that modern MLs are treacherous murderers who must be defeated in real life?
Not quite what the meme said, and also, it's a meme. For people frequently chanting about death to various things, y'all are surprisingly literal.
and also, it's a meme.
You can't use this cop-out like it's a joke whenever it's rhetorically convenient for you, especially when you said in the comments that you completely meant it.
[Yes, I was baited again despite earlier doing the healthy thing of disengaging, that much is not on you]
Then what the fuck do you say "it's a meme" for? What useful information does that convey? Because clearly you're serious about it and have been told that that response comes off as you saying "it's just a joke bro"
Look mate, "it's a meme" means it's not going to be particularly nuanced in its criticism. It's meant to ellicit cheap laughs through simplifying some parts. Y'all have a brain, you can certainly see which parts are exagerrated for these purposes. Your comrades were certainly capable of starting nuanced discussions about Catalonia based on this understanding.
Honestly, I think you are all playing dumb in order to get some gotchas.
I have no interest in gotchas, what I am seeking is a clear and consistent position. Obviously others who know more about the Spanish Civil War know that it's depiction of Stalin as killing anarchists rather than merely supplying them with 75% of their tanks and no more is a wild misrepresentation, and you still have yet to clarify who the "intellectuals" in Mao's case even refer to.
My further point is that this bizarre blanket characterization of MLs as butchers, including of people that they did nothing but help, is gross historical revisionism pandering to the preconceptions of people who frankly have next to zero historical understanding when it comes to the groups it refers to. It is in fact poor conduct to stand by such a message whether it is "just a meme" or communicated by any other medium, just as I am very careful to limit my accusations of, say, Nestor Makhno only to what the most sympathetic of biographers admit of him (since I personally do not know about the proof of other claims).
I don't particularly have to play by your personal rules. For me the original meme is exagerrating historic events (I already explained why) in order to make a simple point "Don't believe in left unity and be wary of tankies". This is the part I agree with. And before you ask, I don't have to justify myself to anyone, especially when they're typical condescending MLs.
I left the comments open so y'all can counter all the claims in the meme in as much depth you want. I literally gave you full platform access. Y'all prefer to use it to shitpost instead 🤷
You are accusing someone of killing people that he did nothing but help, but simply helped inadequately.
You have no idea who the "intellectuals" even are, do you?
If you're a leftist, don't you think promoting red scare myths is probably bad for understanding history.
Edit: I will repeat what I said a while ago that I have never said that you have to do anything. It is a classic deflection to change the question of what you should do to what you can do. You can do anything you want, deny the Holocaust to own the tankies, I can't stop you, but that doesn't mean you should.
Complete aside, I would never tar anarchists like you tar MLs. There are many anarchists, like Sholem Schwartzbard, who I think were admirable in action and character, and MLs learning from anarchists as Mao did was a good thing.
If you’re a leftist, don’t you think promoting red scare myths is probably bad for understanding history.
I don't know how many times I have explained what "this is a meme" means. It's never going to be perfectly accurate or nuanced. There's plenty examples of tankies directly sabotaging and killing anarchists which makes many many anarchists not trust left unity. I don't understand why this is such a difficult idea to maintain.
You shouldn't need to fabricate history to make that point then. The difference between "not giving someone enough tanks" and "summarily executing them" is not merely a matter of "perfect nuance and accuracy", it is a morbid fantasy.
Also it's just sort of poor form to make claims about things you have no idea about, like Mao and the "intellectuals"
Lastly, I'll repost the late second edit you probably missed from earlier:
Complete aside, I would never tar anarchists like you tar MLs. There are many anarchists, like Sholem Schwartzbard, who I think were admirable in action and character, and MLs learning from anarchists as Mao did was a good thing.
You shouldn’t need to fabricate history to make that point then. The difference between “not giving someone enough tanks” and “summarily executing them” is not merely a matter of “perfect nuance and accuracy”, it is a morbid fantasy.
Also it’s just sort of poor form to make claims about things you have no idea about, like Mao and the “intellectuals”
Arglgbl, I just crossposted the meme, at the spur of the moment no less. I didn't make it! I felt that it was an exagerration but nevertheless good enough for a meme. Cheezus.
Complete aside, I would never tar anarchists like you tar MLs. There are many anarchists, like Sholem Schwartzbard, who I think were admirable in action and character, and MLs learning from anarchists as Mao did was a good thing.
Very noble of you, but A) you don't know my lived experiences with tankies, and B) MLs calling anarchists immature, naive and being generally insufferably patronizing is probably older than Lenin and basically the total experience I've had with hexbear the last 2 days :D
Arglgbl, I just crossposted the meme, at the spur of the moment no less. I didn't make it! I felt that it was an exagerration but nevertheless good enough for a meme. Cheezus.
Then the recommendation I'd offer is to not cross-post shit that's bad. You probably didn't know the history of Catalonia (there were things in the discussion that I don't know), but just sort of went off of a cold war vibe in your head that most murder accusations of MLs are probably true "enough". You certainly made at least a bare effort, after it was pointed out to you, to make the meme less racist, but you showed no interest in making even the same guy have a remotely true mass-murder accusation next to his name.
Also the whole "MLs calling for left-unity" thing is, well, ahistorical aside from the United Front, which worked out perfectly well for its purpose of fighting the Nazis. Hexbear says that, but the figures listed did not (idk about Khrushchev, but fuck him).
So it's basically just contempt completely warping your view to the point of accusing people of lies when they neither said what you claim nor did what you claim after.
but A) you don't know my lived experiences with tankies,
They sure as shit didn't murder you. Were your buddies subjected to some 21st century ML firing squad that I've never heard of?
MLs calling anarchists immature, naive and being generally insufferably patronizing
You know what all this is? Not murder! You'd still get complaints from people who can't take a joke, but if you just called MLs patronizing to start with, you'd actually have a valid point
I do know the history of Catalonia. I just don't want to debate it.
They sure as shit didn’t murder you. Were your buddies subjected to some 21st century ML firing squad that I’ve never heard of?
Man, it was going to well until now, don't start making me ridicule you again...
! You’d still get complaints from people who can’t take a joke, but if you just called MLs patronizing to start with, you’d actually have a valid point
My reaction to patronizing behaviour is ridicule. Way funnier.
I do know the history of Catalonia. I just don't want to debate it.
Sorry, I was giving you benefit of the doubt, see then my earlier point about spreading complete fabrications
Man, it was going to well until now, don't start making me ridicule you again...
I could have phrased it in a nicer way, but I thought what I said got to the point more succintly. On reflection, I was incorrect and I apologize for that. Let me try again with more diplomacy:
You are being very non-specific. Did you have a bad time with an ML org or even multiple ML organizations? Did they treat you poorly?* Then foo on them! They were probably Trots just because of our social context (or Bob Avakian's cult that calls itself maoist but also seems more consistent with Trotskyism). But whatever they were, including ML in the sense I'd agree to, they shouldn't have done that.
However, that would not justify the portrayal as butchers, especially using completely fabricated events.
*If my guess was wrong, please correct me.
My reaction to patronizing behaviour is ridicule. Way funnier.
If I wasn't clear enough, ridiculing someone for being patronizing is perfectly reasonable behavior. However, accusing someone of mass murder when they were merely patronizing is decidedly unreasonable.
Sorry, I was giving you benefit of the doubt, see then my earlier point about spreading complete fabrications
And then see my earlier point about exagerrations for the sake of a meme etc etc.
You are being very non-specific. Did you have a bad time with an ML org or even multiple ML organizations? Did they treat you poorly?* Then foo on them! They were probably Trots just because of our social context (or Bob Avakian’s cult that calls itself maoist but also seems more consistent with Trotskyism). But whatever they were, including ML in the sense I’d agree to, they shouldn’t have done that.
I am Greek. I have access to ML orgs which is way more advanced than what you see in US and at the same time also very much stuck on the past.
Let's just say that my experiences show me how hypocritical MLs are and what they really think about "left unity".
If I wasn’t clear enough, ridiculing someone for being patronizing is perfectly reasonable behavior. However, accusing someone of mass murder when they were merely patronizing is decidedly unreasonable.
I didn't engage anyone in such a way. You are way too stuck on the literal interpretation of the meme when I've already explained multiple times what my actual position on MLs is. So what is the end point here? Are you trying to make me apolgize for posting that specific meme or what?
And then see my earlier point about exagerrations for the sake of a meme etc etc.
And then see my response about how going from "merely gives you 75% of your tanks, along with other supplies" to "summarily executes you" is not merely "inaccurate" but fully a historically revisionist fantasy. Someone doing something you disagree with is not a blank check to just accuse them of whatever you want. Stalin being a homophobe (which was bad) is not equivalent to him dropping nuclear bombs on France, and depicting one as the other would do nothing but promote a red scare myths if one existed of him doing that, as one does exist for Catalonia
French anarchists are historically mostly adventurist trash, but I would not depict them in a firing squad shooting MLs if no such killing occurred (and to my knowledge, none did).
Your excuse is further undermined by the fact that the meme does depict some killings that literally did occur, including by the Bolsheviks against anarchists in what would be the USSR. It makes no sense to say that some of the cases are meant to be metaphors when this is the basis.
I am Greek. I have access to ML orgs which is way more advanced than what you see in US and at the same time also very much stuck on the past.
Let's just say that my experiences show me how hypocritical MLs are and what they really think about "left unity".
Progress! See, I generally have great respect for Greek anarchists and I have no knowledge of Greek MLs except the haziest memory of cold war conflicts (and one election you guys had like a decade ago where I think there was a surprisingly high-profile ML candidate), so I will simply take your word for it.
Here's the thing: if you just condemned Greek MLs, I would have nothing to say. Hell, if you condemned American MLs, I would at best have very little to say. Neither of these are the same as condemning all MLs.
I hate Trotskyism, from the man himself to his modern spawn, but this is limited to the imperial core. There are many movements in Latin America that at least partially came from Trotskyism, with some even maintaining the name, and I support them! I unequivocally support them! To my knowledge, what they represent overwhelmingly is a historically progressive force, and that is what matters. Trots in white countries overwhelmingly represent a force of opportunism, and that is why I condemn them even to the point of running afoul of moderation policies (check the mod log if you like).
I do not hate anarchism this way, I think its nature is highly variable place to place but that it usually ends up mainly being ineffective rather than reactionary. Nonetheless, sometimes it works and there are things to learn from it, as I discussed before with Mao studying anarchism.
In France, historically, anarchism has been pretty reactionary, what with "propaganda of the deed" and all that adventurist bullshit. In that respect, I condemn French anarchism, though even there I won't write them off completely for all time.
What I am getting at is that you are making an unreasonable generalization. Perhaps Greek MLs all suck, but they do not speak for MLs from every time and place, and many of us seek to learn from the past but ultimately and with total sincerity are mainly concerned with the present and future.
I'm being long-winded, so I'll leave it there, but I hope you consider this aspect of your perspective.
There's plenty examples of tankies directly sabotaging and killing anarchists
Then put those on the meme instead of the blatant falsehoods that are there. Like, sorry, but "oh, it's a meme it doesn't have to be accurate" is a terrible argument for posting a misleading, anti-communist meme. Just make a better meme, it's not hard
I didn't make the meme. I didn't plan to make a meme. My life doesn't revolve around what hexbears might think of me.
Can you blame me for thinking you care what hexbears think about you? Like, look at this thread we're posting in, look at the meme you started it with (I'm assuming you made this one). It sure seems like you care, and that's ok! I also care what hexbears think about me, even though I'll never meet these weirdo nerds in real life.
Also, if you didn't make the meme and you agree it's anti-communist misinformation, then why post it? And why defend it so vigorously when people point out the misinformation?
Anyway, I have to actually stop putting work off now, so I likely won't be responding to you for at least several hours. I sincerely hope you have a good day, don't let internet arguments get you down too much, ok? The internet is a toxic shithole and it's very, very easy to escalate arguments way too far, even with people who you really have more in common with than not. I know I do it.
Well this is a just a cathartic meme after the first day. The first meme was posted as "good enough" without too close attention to it and the expectation that only anarchists would see it. Subsequently I was perfectly happy to let hexbears counter it all they wanted. Hell, good opportunity for Hexbears to change some hearts and minds, eh? /hide_the_pain_harold
My life doesn't revolve around what hexbears might think of me.
It wasn't an appeal to you being concerned about what hexbears think, it was an appeal to your own sense of what decent conduct is, since you presumably don't want to mislead your fellow anarchists with completely false myths.
[Picture of people being massacred in a pool of their own blood] — "modern online MLs will do this to you in the future if you believe their lies, do not trust them!"
it's all in good fun though, right tankies I would totally organize with in real life?
For people frequently chanting about death to various things, y'all are surprisingly literal.
He thinks the death to america posts aren't literal
you literally came into my thread
You literally started a discussion in a public forum. You don't get to be offended people in the forum engaged with it.
I'm not. Hell, I left the forum open for y'all to shitpost to your heart's content!
Oh, of course you're not. That's why you're derailing threads by accusing everyone of sealioning, because you're not mad at them at all. That's why you posted your shitty wrecker memes in the first place, because you're totally rational and calm.
Absolutely fucking childish.
As I said before: try responding to what I said instead of getting a sick burn in to show to your friends.
Lol y'all don't know what you want. Half of you want to shut me up. Half of you want serious discussions. I'm getting mixed signals, mate!
...you realise we're multiple people, right? Like the usernames tell you who's responding to you. You shouldn't find it confusing unless you're also confused when people on your instance have different views and attitudes.
Like you've literally been told over and over that Hexbear is a left unity instance and has people of a range of socialist ideologies - why would it surprise you that we're not monolithic in our behaviour?
I've never seen an Inco DeNiro Factsum Glish Galoop Slish Slosh No True Strawman Fallacy used so blantantly
Why can't an OP have a good faith argument if the post gets "brigaded"? That doesn't really make sense to me. Anyone can choose to argue in good faith regardless of how the other party behaves.
Well for several reasons.
-
You have to find someone who actually wants to have a good faith argument with you.
-
You have to be disciplined enough to only argue with them, as you will expend energy arguing with the 500 other commenters who are just trolling you.
-
Actually be able to go through your inbox and find the replies of the person you think is actually acting in good faith.
-
Be in the mood to argue in good faith. Which is unlikely from the begining, basically impossible at the end.
-
Can't have a good faith argument with people we have no faith in. Eat shit
Faith is earned, OP tipped the scale against themselves real fast.
what part of db0's crosspost was calling for good faith discussion? Did you look at it? https://lemmy.ml/comment/5783449
When they don't have a counterargument, they attack your character. It shows just how strong their foundation of understanding is that a simple debate or differing viewpoint is a dire threat to their entire worldview. It's extremely pathetic tbh.
I think they just observed that you generally ignored the counterarguments and correctly concluded that presenting yet another to you is absurd, but of course you pick that as the comment you respond to
Also calling someone a dweeb isn't a character attack, like calling them a moron isn't.
I'd fucking love to talk with someone here on terms of argument and counterargument, but that is considered "sealioning" by every fucker I've encountered so far on this worthless anarcho-bidenist instance
Any form of name-calling or declaration in regards to the individual and not the subject of debate is an appeal to character, and is the last resort of those who can't support their claim, second to violence.
If I have "ignored" responses, it is because my app has not notified me that I have a response to a comment. To my knowledge, I have responded in-kind to every comment regarding this post, and even if I hadn't, one cannot be compelled to respond to every argument or point. It is entirely reasonable for me, on my own judgement, to deem a reply to be a waste of time or nothing worth adding to or drawing attention toward.
Lastly, if you would like to make a claim and prove good faith, please do so here or in DMs. I would love to discuss philosophy and ethics. But let's do so in our own words. Quoting Manifestos will be just as effective to a productive discussion as quoting religious scripture. Convince me. Don't beat me with a dead man's words.
>”left unity bad”
>the left unity instance gets mad at youhow could this happen
how can you seriously call anybody a smuglord in that convo except you
does the work of the feds by intentionally seeding distrust between leftists
gets called a fed by leftists
"time to fill my diaper about it!"
The fact that you numbskulls don't even realize how significant fedjacketing is and why we don't do it, just says everything one needs to know.
it's not fedjacketing to say you are being their good little dog with this childish bullshit. i don't think you're being paid. i think you're a goofy asshole who needs to leave their bedroom
In light of this compelling new evidence, I'm updating my hypothesis from "need for attention" to "humiliation fetish".
Thanks for single handily crashing the housing market by allowing millions of hexbear users to live rent free in your head.
Well it works for us on Hexbear. That's actually what I like about it, it's a nice big tent over there. Some of our greatest posters are anarchists, they were indispensable on the frontline of the posting wars that followed federation.
Remember when we ruined that TERFs career?
Or when @Eugene_V_Dabs@hexbear.net and I made a meme that got me reported to the FBI?
That was the version revised to be less racist, not the initial post
I'm at least pleasantly surprised they actually tried to do the bare minimum of editing it to be less racist.
Credit where it's due and all that
