I have no interest in gotchas, what I am seeking is a clear and consistent position. Obviously others who know more about the Spanish Civil War know that it's depiction of Stalin as killing anarchists rather than merely supplying them with 75% of their tanks and no more is a wild misrepresentation, and you still have yet to clarify who the "intellectuals" in Mao's case even refer to.
My further point is that this bizarre blanket characterization of MLs as butchers, including of people that they did nothing but help, is gross historical revisionism pandering to the preconceptions of people who frankly have next to zero historical understanding when it comes to the groups it refers to. It is in fact poor conduct to stand by such a message whether it is "just a meme" or communicated by any other medium, just as I am very careful to limit my accusations of, say, Nestor Makhno only to what the most sympathetic of biographers admit of him (since I personally do not know about the proof of other claims).
I don't particularly have to play by your personal rules. For me the original meme is exagerrating historic events (I already explained why) in order to make a simple point "Don't believe in left unity and be wary of tankies". This is the part I agree with. And before you ask, I don't have to justify myself to anyone, especially when they're typical condescending MLs.
I left the comments open so y'all can counter all the claims in the meme in as much depth you want. I literally gave you full platform access. Y'all prefer to use it to shitpost instead 🤷
You are accusing someone of killing people that he did nothing but help, but simply helped inadequately.
You have no idea who the "intellectuals" even are, do you?
If you're a leftist, don't you think promoting red scare myths is probably bad for understanding history.
Edit: I will repeat what I said a while ago that I have never said that you have to do anything. It is a classic deflection to change the question of what you should do to what you can do. You can do anything you want, deny the Holocaust to own the tankies, I can't stop you, but that doesn't mean you should.
Complete aside, I would never tar anarchists like you tar MLs. There are many anarchists, like Sholem Schwartzbard, who I think were admirable in action and character, and MLs learning from anarchists as Mao did was a good thing.
If you’re a leftist, don’t you think promoting red scare myths is probably bad for understanding history.
I don't know how many times I have explained what "this is a meme" means. It's never going to be perfectly accurate or nuanced. There's plenty examples of tankies directly sabotaging and killing anarchists which makes many many anarchists not trust left unity. I don't understand why this is such a difficult idea to maintain.
You shouldn't need to fabricate history to make that point then. The difference between "not giving someone enough tanks" and "summarily executing them" is not merely a matter of "perfect nuance and accuracy", it is a morbid fantasy.
Also it's just sort of poor form to make claims about things you have no idea about, like Mao and the "intellectuals"
Lastly, I'll repost the late second edit you probably missed from earlier:
Complete aside, I would never tar anarchists like you tar MLs. There are many anarchists, like Sholem Schwartzbard, who I think were admirable in action and character, and MLs learning from anarchists as Mao did was a good thing.
You shouldn’t need to fabricate history to make that point then. The difference between “not giving someone enough tanks” and “summarily executing them” is not merely a matter of “perfect nuance and accuracy”, it is a morbid fantasy.
Also it’s just sort of poor form to make claims about things you have no idea about, like Mao and the “intellectuals”
Arglgbl, I just crossposted the meme, at the spur of the moment no less. I didn't make it! I felt that it was an exagerration but nevertheless good enough for a meme. Cheezus.
Complete aside, I would never tar anarchists like you tar MLs. There are many anarchists, like Sholem Schwartzbard, who I think were admirable in action and character, and MLs learning from anarchists as Mao did was a good thing.
Very noble of you, but A) you don't know my lived experiences with tankies, and B) MLs calling anarchists immature, naive and being generally insufferably patronizing is probably older than Lenin and basically the total experience I've had with hexbear the last 2 days :D
Arglgbl, I just crossposted the meme, at the spur of the moment no less. I didn't make it! I felt that it was an exagerration but nevertheless good enough for a meme. Cheezus.
Then the recommendation I'd offer is to not cross-post shit that's bad. You probably didn't know the history of Catalonia (there were things in the discussion that I don't know), but just sort of went off of a cold war vibe in your head that most murder accusations of MLs are probably true "enough". You certainly made at least a bare effort, after it was pointed out to you, to make the meme less racist, but you showed no interest in making even the same guy have a remotely true mass-murder accusation next to his name.
Also the whole "MLs calling for left-unity" thing is, well, ahistorical aside from the United Front, which worked out perfectly well for its purpose of fighting the Nazis. Hexbear says that, but the figures listed did not (idk about Khrushchev, but fuck him).
So it's basically just contempt completely warping your view to the point of accusing people of lies when they neither said what you claim nor did what you claim after.
but A) you don't know my lived experiences with tankies,
They sure as shit didn't murder you. Were your buddies subjected to some 21st century ML firing squad that I've never heard of?
MLs calling anarchists immature, naive and being generally insufferably patronizing
You know what all this is? Not murder! You'd still get complaints from people who can't take a joke, but if you just called MLs patronizing to start with, you'd actually have a valid point
I do know the history of Catalonia. I just don't want to debate it.
They sure as shit didn’t murder you. Were your buddies subjected to some 21st century ML firing squad that I’ve never heard of?
Man, it was going to well until now, don't start making me ridicule you again...
! You’d still get complaints from people who can’t take a joke, but if you just called MLs patronizing to start with, you’d actually have a valid point
My reaction to patronizing behaviour is ridicule. Way funnier.
I do know the history of Catalonia. I just don't want to debate it.
Sorry, I was giving you benefit of the doubt, see then my earlier point about spreading complete fabrications
Man, it was going to well until now, don't start making me ridicule you again...
I could have phrased it in a nicer way, but I thought what I said got to the point more succintly. On reflection, I was incorrect and I apologize for that. Let me try again with more diplomacy:
You are being very non-specific. Did you have a bad time with an ML org or even multiple ML organizations? Did they treat you poorly?* Then foo on them! They were probably Trots just because of our social context (or Bob Avakian's cult that calls itself maoist but also seems more consistent with Trotskyism). But whatever they were, including ML in the sense I'd agree to, they shouldn't have done that.
However, that would not justify the portrayal as butchers, especially using completely fabricated events.
*If my guess was wrong, please correct me.
My reaction to patronizing behaviour is ridicule. Way funnier.
If I wasn't clear enough, ridiculing someone for being patronizing is perfectly reasonable behavior. However, accusing someone of mass murder when they were merely patronizing is decidedly unreasonable.
Sorry, I was giving you benefit of the doubt, see then my earlier point about spreading complete fabrications
And then see my earlier point about exagerrations for the sake of a meme etc etc.
You are being very non-specific. Did you have a bad time with an ML org or even multiple ML organizations? Did they treat you poorly?* Then foo on them! They were probably Trots just because of our social context (or Bob Avakian’s cult that calls itself maoist but also seems more consistent with Trotskyism). But whatever they were, including ML in the sense I’d agree to, they shouldn’t have done that.
I am Greek. I have access to ML orgs which is way more advanced than what you see in US and at the same time also very much stuck on the past.
Let's just say that my experiences show me how hypocritical MLs are and what they really think about "left unity".
If I wasn’t clear enough, ridiculing someone for being patronizing is perfectly reasonable behavior. However, accusing someone of mass murder when they were merely patronizing is decidedly unreasonable.
I didn't engage anyone in such a way. You are way too stuck on the literal interpretation of the meme when I've already explained multiple times what my actual position on MLs is. So what is the end point here? Are you trying to make me apolgize for posting that specific meme or what?
And then see my earlier point about exagerrations for the sake of a meme etc etc.
And then see my response about how going from "merely gives you 75% of your tanks, along with other supplies" to "summarily executes you" is not merely "inaccurate" but fully a historically revisionist fantasy. Someone doing something you disagree with is not a blank check to just accuse them of whatever you want. Stalin being a homophobe (which was bad) is not equivalent to him dropping nuclear bombs on France, and depicting one as the other would do nothing but promote a red scare myths if one existed of him doing that, as one does exist for Catalonia
French anarchists are historically mostly adventurist trash, but I would not depict them in a firing squad shooting MLs if no such killing occurred (and to my knowledge, none did).
Your excuse is further undermined by the fact that the meme does depict some killings that literally did occur, including by the Bolsheviks against anarchists in what would be the USSR. It makes no sense to say that some of the cases are meant to be metaphors when this is the basis.
I am Greek. I have access to ML orgs which is way more advanced than what you see in US and at the same time also very much stuck on the past.
Let's just say that my experiences show me how hypocritical MLs are and what they really think about "left unity".
Progress! See, I generally have great respect for Greek anarchists and I have no knowledge of Greek MLs except the haziest memory of cold war conflicts (and one election you guys had like a decade ago where I think there was a surprisingly high-profile ML candidate), so I will simply take your word for it.
Here's the thing: if you just condemned Greek MLs, I would have nothing to say. Hell, if you condemned American MLs, I would at best have very little to say. Neither of these are the same as condemning all MLs.
I hate Trotskyism, from the man himself to his modern spawn, but this is limited to the imperial core. There are many movements in Latin America that at least partially came from Trotskyism, with some even maintaining the name, and I support them! I unequivocally support them! To my knowledge, what they represent overwhelmingly is a historically progressive force, and that is what matters. Trots in white countries overwhelmingly represent a force of opportunism, and that is why I condemn them even to the point of running afoul of moderation policies (check the mod log if you like).
I do not hate anarchism this way, I think its nature is highly variable place to place but that it usually ends up mainly being ineffective rather than reactionary. Nonetheless, sometimes it works and there are things to learn from it, as I discussed before with Mao studying anarchism.
In France, historically, anarchism has been pretty reactionary, what with "propaganda of the deed" and all that adventurist bullshit. In that respect, I condemn French anarchism, though even there I won't write them off completely for all time.
What I am getting at is that you are making an unreasonable generalization. Perhaps Greek MLs all suck, but they do not speak for MLs from every time and place, and many of us seek to learn from the past but ultimately and with total sincerity are mainly concerned with the present and future.
I'm being long-winded, so I'll leave it there, but I hope you consider this aspect of your perspective.
There's plenty examples of tankies directly sabotaging and killing anarchists
Then put those on the meme instead of the blatant falsehoods that are there. Like, sorry, but "oh, it's a meme it doesn't have to be accurate" is a terrible argument for posting a misleading, anti-communist meme. Just make a better meme, it's not hard
Can you blame me for thinking you care what hexbears think about you? Like, look at this thread we're posting in, look at the meme you started it with (I'm assuming you made this one). It sure seems like you care, and that's ok! I also care what hexbears think about me, even though I'll never meet these weirdo nerds in real life.
Also, if you didn't make the meme and you agree it's anti-communist misinformation, then why post it? And why defend it so vigorously when people point out the misinformation?
Anyway, I have to actually stop putting work off now, so I likely won't be responding to you for at least several hours. I sincerely hope you have a good day, don't let internet arguments get you down too much, ok? The internet is a toxic shithole and it's very, very easy to escalate arguments way too far, even with people who you really have more in common with than not. I know I do it.
Well this is a just a cathartic meme after the first day. The first meme was posted as "good enough" without too close attention to it and the expectation that only anarchists would see it. Subsequently I was perfectly happy to let hexbears counter it all they wanted. Hell, good opportunity for Hexbears to change some hearts and minds, eh? /hide_the_pain_harold
My life doesn't revolve around what hexbears might think of me.
It wasn't an appeal to you being concerned about what hexbears think, it was an appeal to your own sense of what decent conduct is, since you presumably don't want to mislead your fellow anarchists with completely false myths.
I have no interest in gotchas, what I am seeking is a clear and consistent position. Obviously others who know more about the Spanish Civil War know that it's depiction of Stalin as killing anarchists rather than merely supplying them with 75% of their tanks and no more is a wild misrepresentation, and you still have yet to clarify who the "intellectuals" in Mao's case even refer to.
My further point is that this bizarre blanket characterization of MLs as butchers, including of people that they did nothing but help, is gross historical revisionism pandering to the preconceptions of people who frankly have next to zero historical understanding when it comes to the groups it refers to. It is in fact poor conduct to stand by such a message whether it is "just a meme" or communicated by any other medium, just as I am very careful to limit my accusations of, say, Nestor Makhno only to what the most sympathetic of biographers admit of him (since I personally do not know about the proof of other claims).
I don't particularly have to play by your personal rules. For me the original meme is exagerrating historic events (I already explained why) in order to make a simple point "Don't believe in left unity and be wary of tankies". This is the part I agree with. And before you ask, I don't have to justify myself to anyone, especially when they're typical condescending MLs.
I left the comments open so y'all can counter all the claims in the meme in as much depth you want. I literally gave you full platform access. Y'all prefer to use it to shitpost instead 🤷
You are accusing someone of killing people that he did nothing but help, but simply helped inadequately.
You have no idea who the "intellectuals" even are, do you?
If you're a leftist, don't you think promoting red scare myths is probably bad for understanding history.
Edit: I will repeat what I said a while ago that I have never said that you have to do anything. It is a classic deflection to change the question of what you should do to what you can do. You can do anything you want, deny the Holocaust to own the tankies, I can't stop you, but that doesn't mean you should.
Complete aside, I would never tar anarchists like you tar MLs. There are many anarchists, like Sholem Schwartzbard, who I think were admirable in action and character, and MLs learning from anarchists as Mao did was a good thing.
I don't know how many times I have explained what "this is a meme" means. It's never going to be perfectly accurate or nuanced. There's plenty examples of tankies directly sabotaging and killing anarchists which makes many many anarchists not trust left unity. I don't understand why this is such a difficult idea to maintain.
You shouldn't need to fabricate history to make that point then. The difference between "not giving someone enough tanks" and "summarily executing them" is not merely a matter of "perfect nuance and accuracy", it is a morbid fantasy.
Also it's just sort of poor form to make claims about things you have no idea about, like Mao and the "intellectuals"
Lastly, I'll repost the late second edit you probably missed from earlier:
Arglgbl, I just crossposted the meme, at the spur of the moment no less. I didn't make it! I felt that it was an exagerration but nevertheless good enough for a meme. Cheezus.
Very noble of you, but A) you don't know my lived experiences with tankies, and B) MLs calling anarchists immature, naive and being generally insufferably patronizing is probably older than Lenin and basically the total experience I've had with hexbear the last 2 days :D
Then the recommendation I'd offer is to not cross-post shit that's bad. You probably didn't know the history of Catalonia (there were things in the discussion that I don't know), but just sort of went off of a cold war vibe in your head that most murder accusations of MLs are probably true "enough". You certainly made at least a bare effort, after it was pointed out to you, to make the meme less racist, but you showed no interest in making even the same guy have a remotely true mass-murder accusation next to his name.
Also the whole "MLs calling for left-unity" thing is, well, ahistorical aside from the United Front, which worked out perfectly well for its purpose of fighting the Nazis. Hexbear says that, but the figures listed did not (idk about Khrushchev, but fuck him).
So it's basically just contempt completely warping your view to the point of accusing people of lies when they neither said what you claim nor did what you claim after.
They sure as shit didn't murder you. Were your buddies subjected to some 21st century ML firing squad that I've never heard of?
You know what all this is? Not murder! You'd still get complaints from people who can't take a joke, but if you just called MLs patronizing to start with, you'd actually have a valid point
I do know the history of Catalonia. I just don't want to debate it.
Man, it was going to well until now, don't start making me ridicule you again...
My reaction to patronizing behaviour is ridicule. Way funnier.
Sorry, I was giving you benefit of the doubt, see then my earlier point about spreading complete fabrications
I could have phrased it in a nicer way, but I thought what I said got to the point more succintly. On reflection, I was incorrect and I apologize for that. Let me try again with more diplomacy:
You are being very non-specific. Did you have a bad time with an ML org or even multiple ML organizations? Did they treat you poorly?* Then foo on them! They were probably Trots just because of our social context (or Bob Avakian's cult that calls itself maoist but also seems more consistent with Trotskyism). But whatever they were, including ML in the sense I'd agree to, they shouldn't have done that.
However, that would not justify the portrayal as butchers, especially using completely fabricated events.
*If my guess was wrong, please correct me.
If I wasn't clear enough, ridiculing someone for being patronizing is perfectly reasonable behavior. However, accusing someone of mass murder when they were merely patronizing is decidedly unreasonable.
And then see my earlier point about exagerrations for the sake of a meme etc etc.
I am Greek. I have access to ML orgs which is way more advanced than what you see in US and at the same time also very much stuck on the past.
Let's just say that my experiences show me how hypocritical MLs are and what they really think about "left unity".
I didn't engage anyone in such a way. You are way too stuck on the literal interpretation of the meme when I've already explained multiple times what my actual position on MLs is. So what is the end point here? Are you trying to make me apolgize for posting that specific meme or what?
And then see my response about how going from "merely gives you 75% of your tanks, along with other supplies" to "summarily executes you" is not merely "inaccurate" but fully a historically revisionist fantasy. Someone doing something you disagree with is not a blank check to just accuse them of whatever you want. Stalin being a homophobe (which was bad) is not equivalent to him dropping nuclear bombs on France, and depicting one as the other would do nothing but promote a red scare myths if one existed of him doing that, as one does exist for Catalonia
French anarchists are historically mostly adventurist trash, but I would not depict them in a firing squad shooting MLs if no such killing occurred (and to my knowledge, none did).
Your excuse is further undermined by the fact that the meme does depict some killings that literally did occur, including by the Bolsheviks against anarchists in what would be the USSR. It makes no sense to say that some of the cases are meant to be metaphors when this is the basis.
Progress! See, I generally have great respect for Greek anarchists and I have no knowledge of Greek MLs except the haziest memory of cold war conflicts (and one election you guys had like a decade ago where I think there was a surprisingly high-profile ML candidate), so I will simply take your word for it.
Here's the thing: if you just condemned Greek MLs, I would have nothing to say. Hell, if you condemned American MLs, I would at best have very little to say. Neither of these are the same as condemning all MLs.
I hate Trotskyism, from the man himself to his modern spawn, but this is limited to the imperial core. There are many movements in Latin America that at least partially came from Trotskyism, with some even maintaining the name, and I support them! I unequivocally support them! To my knowledge, what they represent overwhelmingly is a historically progressive force, and that is what matters. Trots in white countries overwhelmingly represent a force of opportunism, and that is why I condemn them even to the point of running afoul of moderation policies (check the mod log if you like).
I do not hate anarchism this way, I think its nature is highly variable place to place but that it usually ends up mainly being ineffective rather than reactionary. Nonetheless, sometimes it works and there are things to learn from it, as I discussed before with Mao studying anarchism.
In France, historically, anarchism has been pretty reactionary, what with "propaganda of the deed" and all that adventurist bullshit. In that respect, I condemn French anarchism, though even there I won't write them off completely for all time.
What I am getting at is that you are making an unreasonable generalization. Perhaps Greek MLs all suck, but they do not speak for MLs from every time and place, and many of us seek to learn from the past but ultimately and with total sincerity are mainly concerned with the present and future.
I'm being long-winded, so I'll leave it there, but I hope you consider this aspect of your perspective.
Then put those on the meme instead of the blatant falsehoods that are there. Like, sorry, but "oh, it's a meme it doesn't have to be accurate" is a terrible argument for posting a misleading, anti-communist meme. Just make a better meme, it's not hard
I didn't make the meme. I didn't plan to make a meme. My life doesn't revolve around what hexbears might think of me.
Can you blame me for thinking you care what hexbears think about you? Like, look at this thread we're posting in, look at the meme you started it with (I'm assuming you made this one). It sure seems like you care, and that's ok! I also care what hexbears think about me, even though I'll never meet these weirdo nerds in real life.
Also, if you didn't make the meme and you agree it's anti-communist misinformation, then why post it? And why defend it so vigorously when people point out the misinformation?
Anyway, I have to actually stop putting work off now, so I likely won't be responding to you for at least several hours. I sincerely hope you have a good day, don't let internet arguments get you down too much, ok? The internet is a toxic shithole and it's very, very easy to escalate arguments way too far, even with people who you really have more in common with than not. I know I do it.
Well this is a just a cathartic meme after the first day. The first meme was posted as "good enough" without too close attention to it and the expectation that only anarchists would see it. Subsequently I was perfectly happy to let hexbears counter it all they wanted. Hell, good opportunity for Hexbears to change some hearts and minds, eh? /hide_the_pain_harold
It wasn't an appeal to you being concerned about what hexbears think, it was an appeal to your own sense of what decent conduct is, since you presumably don't want to mislead your fellow anarchists with completely false myths.