Look we're all communists or anarchists here, so sure the abolition of the capitalist system is the end-goal, but operating within the paramtres of the system is sadly all that is possible for most people - There is no large scale popular uprising coming in the imperial core. At least a UBI works against starvation and homelessness.
It works to alleviate homelessness and starvation within the country, whilst working within the capitalist imperialist system that will be the downfall of us all if we do nothing about it.
I think capitalism is bad, but within that badness, UBI seems - based on the data and research available - to be a tool that makes it less bad for those existing within it.
I dunno, maybe? I don't know what path forward will bring about the change needed, and maybe it's fine to just try to improve things where you believe they can be improved until then
I did not say you weren't working towards it?
I feel like a broken record: I dunno, maybe? I don't know what path forward will bring about the change needed, and maybe it's fine to just try to improve things where you believe they can be improved until then. I think it might be feasible to implement UBI, since it has already been implemented in many trial runs, and labour movements have won concessions many times before.
I've tried occupying, fighting, blockading, sabotaging and organizing and none of it feels like it has mattered in any way. Maybe this will. I don't know. Maybe.
The same way we've seen other concessions become implemented. The same way universal healthcare, public retirement funds, universal education, student-wages, maternity leave, paid vacations, free public infrastructure, public housing and the like has become implemented before.
These came by as a result of strong labour movements and a general mass movement working towards getting specific goals implemented. These movements eventually forcing the capitalists hand.
I don't think these mass movements formed around a core ideology generally - at least not as far as I can tell from the examples I can think of (for example the soviets' call for "peace, bread and land" the cuban revolutionaries focus on working the local community, the maoists focus on helping the locals as well).
The movements were formed by an ideological core group. That core group gained support from the masses by way of working towards specific goals that alleviated suffering and improved conditions. Other stuff came after.
That's a very condensed walkthru of my general understanding of historical labour movements and then a sidetrack into revolutionairy movements because I can't avoid getting sidetracked. It's very reductive and lacking in many areas, and there are many other ways of analysing these events, I know.
Maybe UBI can be such a cause that helps gain mass support. Maybe it can't, I don't know. Maybe it's just a singular concession that cannot be a part of a greater movement, but then that concession still seems to be a thing that would make life better for people within the system. Maybe it's a pipe dream, I don't know, we're talking hypotheticals.
It works to alleviate homelessness and starvation within the country, whilst working within the capitalist imperialist system that will be the downfall of us all if we do nothing about it.
I think capitalism is bad, but within that badness, UBI seems - based on the data and research available - to be a tool that makes it less bad for those existing within it.
The argument for it is the results as presented in those 91 research articles i linked.
If you wanna argue with someone about uni, argue with the dude that compiled those articles, I'm barely thru the first few of them.
A pilot study where a group of people are given money tells us nothing about the effects on the economy of UBI. How will it increase tax? How will salaries adjust?
Looking at the 91 research articles, half of them don't even claim to be about UBI. They don't mention UBI. They are studies on direct cash transfers which is a different thing.
Are you arguing that distributing more money among Kenyan villagers is "distribution of spoils among those that benefit from colonialism"?
Like, you see Kenyan villagers as the beneficiaries of colonialism?
I don't think ubi under capitalism is any type of solution and I agree with you it's a distraction. But I think ubi is good outside of capitalism or at least the idea of everyone's basic needs being met
threadreaderapp. But to the point UBI is bullshit it's socdem distribution of spoils among those that benefit from colonialism.
Fuck UBI. This is bad.
lmao who upvoted this post?
Honestly this should have been your first red flag.
Look we're all communists or anarchists here, so sure the abolition of the capitalist system is the end-goal, but operating within the paramtres of the system is sadly all that is possible for most people - There is no large scale popular uprising coming in the imperial core. At least a UBI works against starvation and homelessness.
It works to do what?
Preserve the capitalist mode of production by placating some workers within specific national boundaries?
look I get where you are coming from but it's not "good" or any sort of solution to any of the contradictions of capitalism.
It works to alleviate homelessness and starvation within the country, whilst working within the capitalist imperialist system that will be the downfall of us all if we do nothing about it.
I think capitalism is bad, but within that badness, UBI seems - based on the data and research available - to be a tool that makes it less bad for those existing within it.
Is that something worth fighting for? It isn't ever going to happen and it is a distraction from actual class struggle.
Keep your eye on the ball comrade.
I dunno, maybe? I don't know what path forward will bring about the change needed, and maybe it's fine to just try to improve things where you believe they can be improved until then
Yes and that is what I am helping work toward through Chunka Luta.
UBI is not our goal. I have to reiterate: Keep your eye on the ball.
I did not say you weren't working towards it?
I feel like a broken record: I dunno, maybe? I don't know what path forward will bring about the change needed, and maybe it's fine to just try to improve things where you believe they can be improved until then. I think it might be feasible to implement UBI, since it has already been implemented in many trial runs, and labour movements have won concessions many times before.
I've tried occupying, fighting, blockading, sabotaging and organizing and none of it feels like it has mattered in any way. Maybe this will. I don't know. Maybe.
How?
The same way we've seen other concessions become implemented. The same way universal healthcare, public retirement funds, universal education, student-wages, maternity leave, paid vacations, free public infrastructure, public housing and the like has become implemented before.
These came by as a result of strong labour movements and a general mass movement working towards getting specific goals implemented. These movements eventually forcing the capitalists hand.
I don't think these mass movements formed around a core ideology generally - at least not as far as I can tell from the examples I can think of (for example the soviets' call for "peace, bread and land" the cuban revolutionaries focus on working the local community, the maoists focus on helping the locals as well).
The movements were formed by an ideological core group. That core group gained support from the masses by way of working towards specific goals that alleviated suffering and improved conditions. Other stuff came after.
That's a very condensed walkthru of my general understanding of historical labour movements and then a sidetrack into revolutionairy movements because I can't avoid getting sidetracked. It's very reductive and lacking in many areas, and there are many other ways of analysing these events, I know.
Maybe UBI can be such a cause that helps gain mass support. Maybe it can't, I don't know. Maybe it's just a singular concession that cannot be a part of a greater movement, but then that concession still seems to be a thing that would make life better for people within the system. Maybe it's a pipe dream, I don't know, we're talking hypotheticals.
Do any of those things exist?Has that ever worked?
Yes all of those things exist, otherwise they would have been bad examples.
What do you define by "worked"?
This is welfare. This is what welfare does.
Yes you are correct. Ubi is a form of welfare.
Most red support the welfare state under capitalism, as espoused by Clement Attlee, Jeremy Corbyn, etc.
Why should we persuaded to suddenly extend it to employed people?
That's all UBI people want to do when you strip away the fancy terminology and American Thought: give people with jobs the dole.
What's the argument in favour of giving people with jobs the dole?
The argument for it is the results as presented in those 91 research articles i linked.
If you wanna argue with someone about uni, argue with the dude that compiled those articles, I'm barely thru the first few of them.
A pilot study where a group of people are given money tells us nothing about the effects on the economy of UBI. How will it increase tax? How will salaries adjust?
Looking at the 91 research articles, half of them don't even claim to be about UBI. They don't mention UBI. They are studies on direct cash transfers which is a different thing.
Okay? I don't really understand why you're trying to argue with me as if I'm some sort of arch-ubi advocate.
This isn't reddit, we're not recreationally arguing, we're here to learn
Then why are you trying to start an argument, instead of reading the research articles?
UBI is the neoliberalisation of welfare.
Take the weekly amount of money you get on the dole. Let's say it's 90, for the sake of the example.
Say minimum wage is 200 a week.
That means working instead of relaxing requires 110 extra to motivate the worker
With normal welfare, the employer must pay the 200. With UBI the employer only has to pay 110, and the taxpayer via UBI pays the other 90
It's a transfer of trillions from the taxpayer to subsidise scabby employers.
Are you arguing that distributing more money among Kenyan villagers is "distribution of spoils among those that benefit from colonialism"? Like, you see Kenyan villagers as the beneficiaries of colonialism?
No, I am arguing that it is a pipedream that will never happen without revolutionary class struggle that renders the concept moot.
UBI is a reformist distraction
I am honestly surprised to see anyone here give any credence to UBI.
I don't think ubi under capitalism is any type of solution and I agree with you it's a distraction. But I think ubi is good outside of capitalism or at least the idea of everyone's basic needs being met
I pose to you the same question I posed to OP here: How?
I'm not sure what you're asking but I pretty much agree with you. Ubi is like a tool and can be used for good.