If we can’t even decide on basic shit like “is the earth warming at a rate that is hostile to life” how are we supposed to form a new cohesive government? It’s going to be hard enough electing decent people to any structure you can think of.
You yourself are making our point for why liberal democracy cannot fix itself. We can't form a "cohesive government" as you say within this system. That's why its necessary for this system to end.
You will never be able to elect "decent people" because you, us, the people do not have a say in who they get to vote for. This government does not exist for us, and it is not a democracy for us. And it never will be, until the power of capital is broken
When your way has been implemented, and the system is overthrown, and all is just and fair, how are you going to protect this revolution from the next one?
As you said, the government doesn’t work for us. I don’t know of any structure that truly does because they all rely on those given power to use it responsibly and relinquish it eventually, which will always be subject to corruption.
But the alternative is anarchy, and that’s not going to work either.
how are you going to protect this revolution from the next one?
There's an entire intellectual tradition about this called Marxism-Leninism. There are successful Marxist-Leninist governments that exist right now, including the largest nation on earth. We aren't aren't talking about a fantasy here, there is is over a hundred years of paractice and two hundred of theory, if you're interested in our worldview
As you said, the government doesn’t work for us. I don’t know of any structure that truly does
Liberal democracy does not work for us - as in the people who are not in the ruling class. That isn't because of some immutable characteristic of all governments, it is by the design of the US government and all liberal democracies.
They were designed by and to work to the benefit of the ruling class - capitalists. That's why it doesn't work for us. Thats the key element and that's what we advocate for a change of. The only way to change things in through class struggle - and placing power in the hands of our class.
But the alternative is anarchy, and that’s not going to work either.
We have anarchists here and we keep the place non-sectarian. MLs would agree but not for the same reasons as you. Our disagreement is that we need the power of a state to safeguard the gains of a revolution against the global capitalist class and their state forces. Anarchists have a different view, but they understand the importance of revolutionary class struggle and disagreements aside, their theory of change is infinitely more grounded in reality than yours
China is the most obvious one, but Cuba, DPRK, Vietnam, the USSR did very well until it lost its conflict with the US.
You're probably going to say some dumb shit like China isnt really communist, which shows you don't know what you're talking about, or maybe some other westoid propaganda talking point about muh authoritarianism. If that's what you've got don't bother.
You probably don't consider these countries "successful" for some reason based on US propaganda. Great, we've all heard it and know its bullshit.
If you want to pretend that China is not currently the most successful nation on earth, the world's largest democracy, and led by a Marxist Leninist party, cool. Most of the west likes to pretend that shit to. It doesn't change reality, and no one here wants to hear about your lib fantasy world
Corruption is a fundamental problem of any system of governance, and it reaches a point where the only route to defeat it is to kill the fucking cheats who set it up.
Voting is nit going to fix a system that has intentionally broken voting to invalidate you. Only revolution can do that.
Okay, so we're in the same place. Replacing the current system with something better may get corrupted, but so may status quo. So has status quo.
We don't want revolution because we think everything would perfect and incorruptible in that future, but because a fresh start affords us aon opportunity to reflect upon our foundational mistakes and do build something great from the ground up.
And this is how it works with any project. Sometimes the movie isnt coming together and fixing costs more than starting over. Sometimes your drawing has fundamental issues that can't be fixed by small tweaks, and entire sections or pieces need to be cleared or restarted afresh.
Trying to fix this system certainly is a thing you can try, and many people here have. I spent 35-odd years of my life as a diehard Democrat. I caucused locally and helped my mayor get elected. I didn't come to my position today from a lack of consideration. I think we'd all prefer this shit to be fixed as easily as possible, and no good marxist is under the impression that revolutions are simple, painless things to attempt.
Being liberal is about keeping an open mind, yeah? Like openmindedness is a central principle to modern liberal political philosophy. Keep that energy. Let your mind be open to what the left suggests. I'm not under the impression I can talk you into leftism, but it doesnt hurt you to consider what the left has to offer to your personal philosophy
You yourself are making our point for why liberal democracy cannot fix itself. We can't form a "cohesive government" as you say within this system. That's why its necessary for this system to end.
You will never be able to elect "decent people" because you, us, the people do not have a say in who they get to vote for. This government does not exist for us, and it is not a democracy for us. And it never will be, until the power of capital is broken
When your way has been implemented, and the system is overthrown, and all is just and fair, how are you going to protect this revolution from the next one?
As you said, the government doesn’t work for us. I don’t know of any structure that truly does because they all rely on those given power to use it responsibly and relinquish it eventually, which will always be subject to corruption.
But the alternative is anarchy, and that’s not going to work either.
There's an entire intellectual tradition about this called Marxism-Leninism. There are successful Marxist-Leninist governments that exist right now, including the largest nation on earth. We aren't aren't talking about a fantasy here, there is is over a hundred years of paractice and two hundred of theory, if you're interested in our worldview
Liberal democracy does not work for us - as in the people who are not in the ruling class. That isn't because of some immutable characteristic of all governments, it is by the design of the US government and all liberal democracies.
They were designed by and to work to the benefit of the ruling class - capitalists. That's why it doesn't work for us. Thats the key element and that's what we advocate for a change of. The only way to change things in through class struggle - and placing power in the hands of our class.
We have anarchists here and we keep the place non-sectarian. MLs would agree but not for the same reasons as you. Our disagreement is that we need the power of a state to safeguard the gains of a revolution against the global capitalist class and their state forces. Anarchists have a different view, but they understand the importance of revolutionary class struggle and disagreements aside, their theory of change is infinitely more grounded in reality than yours
How would you define a successful Marxist-Leninist government and which is it?
China is the most obvious one, but Cuba, DPRK, Vietnam, the USSR did very well until it lost its conflict with the US.
You're probably going to say some dumb shit like China isnt really communist, which shows you don't know what you're talking about, or maybe some other westoid propaganda talking point about muh authoritarianism. If that's what you've got don't bother.
You probably don't consider these countries "successful" for some reason based on US propaganda. Great, we've all heard it and know its bullshit.
If you want to pretend that China is not currently the most successful nation on earth, the world's largest democracy, and led by a Marxist Leninist party, cool. Most of the west likes to pretend that shit to. It doesn't change reality, and no one here wants to hear about your lib fantasy world
When did China become a democracy? It’s not communist? I thought you said it was?
I love how you didn’t even give me the opportunity to weigh in on your answers before defending them. You must be real fun at parties.
Socialism is democratic dumbass. Its not liberal democracy - its people's democracy.
Because you libs all say the same dumb shit
Tiananmen square say whaaaat.
Also, communism and socialism aren’t the same thing hahahah. Which is it?
Lmao you're a living meme
Bet they've never heard this before, heh
Tianemen... Square??? Is that something from geometry, like a rhombus? Never heard of it.
Crony capitalism is the problem? Well yeah when you put it like that its like real capitalism hasn't even been tried! You're a genius.
Never would have heard these unique perspectives living in the US
K. I don’t really care what you say lol.
So brave :liberalism:
This is a classic example of "no investigation, no right to speak." You don't know what you're talking about
I do, but your circular logic is seemingly impenetrable
In this moment I am euphoric
Took the words right out of my mouth!
Please, stop lying about a country that you don't know.
Corruption is a fundamental problem of any system of governance, and it reaches a point where the only route to defeat it is to kill the fucking cheats who set it up.
Voting is nit going to fix a system that has intentionally broken voting to invalidate you. Only revolution can do that.
Right, when that revolution is over what is to keep that new perfect system from being corrupted again?
Why bother trying to do anything ever if everything we do is doomed?
Because the alternative is much more sad.
I’d rather go out knowing I tried what I could while I was here.
Just because something isn’t perfect doesn’t mean it isn’t worth doing, and nothing worth having comes easy.
Okay, so we're in the same place. Replacing the current system with something better may get corrupted, but so may status quo. So has status quo.
We don't want revolution because we think everything would perfect and incorruptible in that future, but because a fresh start affords us aon opportunity to reflect upon our foundational mistakes and do build something great from the ground up.
And this is how it works with any project. Sometimes the movie isnt coming together and fixing costs more than starting over. Sometimes your drawing has fundamental issues that can't be fixed by small tweaks, and entire sections or pieces need to be cleared or restarted afresh.
Trying to fix this system certainly is a thing you can try, and many people here have. I spent 35-odd years of my life as a diehard Democrat. I caucused locally and helped my mayor get elected. I didn't come to my position today from a lack of consideration. I think we'd all prefer this shit to be fixed as easily as possible, and no good marxist is under the impression that revolutions are simple, painless things to attempt.
Being liberal is about keeping an open mind, yeah? Like openmindedness is a central principle to modern liberal political philosophy. Keep that energy. Let your mind be open to what the left suggests. I'm not under the impression I can talk you into leftism, but it doesnt hurt you to consider what the left has to offer to your personal philosophy