I pretty much agree. All these categories are created by people anyway, they aren't natural laws or anything. That being said I respect what people what to be referred to as, and while I myself don't see much a difference between bi/pan/etc I'll respect those who do
Meh, I think that's an oversimplification. It's more like "they all can pretty much manifest the same in practice, but there can (not always) be minor differences between them as well", but I guess that's too drawn out.
i see at least two problems trying to label this stuff:
the minutiae is very internal and highly regionalized depending on what your first introduction to any of these terms was, the differences matter to the people identifying with the labels but not to me shooting my shot being too afraid of rejection to approach them.
gender is performance and signs and signifiers, and you can show straight guys who don't know a picture of finnster.
while the manifesto is more inclusive, i find these orientation labels to be rooted in a framework where the options are really just same/different/"both" and not up to the task of concisely and usefully communicating what we try to use them for in a contemporary gender theory. I'm agender and none of the orientation labels communicate what would otherwise be heteronormative attraction, but there's no "opposite" to nothing so logically i can't be straight and if i use that term anyway for convenience it erases my absence of gender.
As a pansexual non-binary trans person, it baffles people A LOT for some reason when I tell them "I don't think transgender people, binary or non-binary, play any part into what your sexuality is.", and I think this is because people have generally have misunderstood ideas about sexual orientation and how it manifests.
The point you made about F1NN5TER is indicative of something I've always said:
"Realistically speaking, sexual orientation pertains more to perception of gender than gender itself. A straight man who sees a very feminine man [like F1NN in your case] and perceives him as a woman can find said man sexually attractive without it being contradicting. There is no magical part of your brain that tells you what someone's "true" gender is, so it's up to your interpretation at that point when you logically think about it."
Sexual orientation terms can be useful in conveying general "guidelines" as to how your sexual orientation will work, but I think people get too caught up in trying to treat it rigidly, as if labels are prescriptive rather than descriptive. There are too many straight men, especially with toxic masculinity considered, who will deny the point I made about the above self-quoted statement just because they want to adhere to a certain perception of how society perceives sexual orientation and masculinity rather than what it actually is.
I, identifying as bisexual and pansexual simultaneously, typically use the term "bisexual" to state that I have a cohesive form of multisexuality. This means that I can observe more than one gender presentation or perception of gender and find multiple ones attractive. I use the term "pansexual" to state that I am gender-blind and completely disregard gender when it comes to my preferences.
Some battle-axe bisexuals (CW: Exclusionism) will grasp at straws and say "AckcHyUALLy aLL BI pEOple arE aTtRAcTeD TO peOpLE rEGArdLESS of gENDEr", but unless they want to use semantic manipulation to inherently define multisexuality to mean "disregarding gender" (and, even then, that wouldn't even make any sense whatsoever), this isn't true. There are bisexuals who will say things like "I'm bisexual, but I like my men tall, and I like my women short." which literally, for all intents and purposes, is regarding gender. That's not to say that bisexual people who don't regard gender must identify as pansexual. In fact, I'd be the biggest one to say they absolutely should not feel pressured to do so because labels are personal, and absolutely no one, regardless of what your label is into relation to someone else's, should feel they have the right to comment on someone else's personal experience with identity, but to argue that bisexuality inherently entails disregarding gender is false and, ironically enough, biphobic in a way. There are bisexual people who proudly claim that they DO regard gender, so when they read a definition like that by so called "battle-axe bisexuals" who claim to be warriors in fighting off biphobia, it is very much possible for them to feel invalidated.
But your points are totally legitimate because, at the end of the day, the differences are marginal in practice. Even if I disregard gender and wouldn't say something like "I like my men tall, and I like my women short", my struggles on a societal level are nothing different than that of a bisexual person who would say "I like my men tall, and I like my women short", and I think that is the key reason why we should emphasize unity over exclusion in all subsects of the LGBT community, not just the bisexual portion.
theyre all the same
just going to refer to people as multi-sexual and refuse to learn any additional details.
I pretty much agree. All these categories are created by people anyway, they aren't natural laws or anything. That being said I respect what people what to be referred to as, and while I myself don't see much a difference between bi/pan/etc I'll respect those who do
Meh, I think that's an oversimplification. It's more like "they all can pretty much manifest the same in practice, but there can (not always) be minor differences between them as well", but I guess that's too drawn out.
i see at least two problems trying to label this stuff:
the minutiae is very internal and highly regionalized depending on what your first introduction to any of these terms was, the differences matter to the people identifying with the labels but not to me
shooting my shotbeing too afraid of rejection to approach them.gender is performance and signs and signifiers, and you can show straight guys who don't know a picture of finnster.
while the manifesto is more inclusive, i find these orientation labels to be rooted in a framework where the options are really just same/different/"both" and not up to the task of concisely and usefully communicating what we try to use them for in a contemporary gender theory. I'm agender and none of the orientation labels communicate what would otherwise be heteronormative attraction, but there's no "opposite" to nothing so logically i can't be straight and if i use that term anyway for convenience it erases my absence of gender.
I actually agree with the point you're making.
As a pansexual non-binary trans person, it baffles people A LOT for some reason when I tell them "I don't think transgender people, binary or non-binary, play any part into what your sexuality is.", and I think this is because people have generally have misunderstood ideas about sexual orientation and how it manifests.
The point you made about F1NN5TER is indicative of something I've always said:
Sexual orientation terms can be useful in conveying general "guidelines" as to how your sexual orientation will work, but I think people get too caught up in trying to treat it rigidly, as if labels are prescriptive rather than descriptive. There are too many straight men, especially with toxic masculinity considered, who will deny the point I made about the above self-quoted statement just because they want to adhere to a certain perception of how society perceives sexual orientation and masculinity rather than what it actually is.
I, identifying as bisexual and pansexual simultaneously, typically use the term "bisexual" to state that I have a cohesive form of multisexuality. This means that I can observe more than one gender presentation or perception of gender and find multiple ones attractive. I use the term "pansexual" to state that I am gender-blind and completely disregard gender when it comes to my preferences.
Some battle-axe bisexuals (CW: Exclusionism) will grasp at straws and say "AckcHyUALLy aLL BI pEOple arE aTtRAcTeD TO peOpLE rEGArdLESS of gENDEr", but unless they want to use semantic manipulation to inherently define multisexuality to mean "disregarding gender" (and, even then, that wouldn't even make any sense whatsoever), this isn't true. There are bisexuals who will say things like "I'm bisexual, but I like my men tall, and I like my women short." which literally, for all intents and purposes, is regarding gender. That's not to say that bisexual people who don't regard gender must identify as pansexual. In fact, I'd be the biggest one to say they absolutely should not feel pressured to do so because labels are personal, and absolutely no one, regardless of what your label is into relation to someone else's, should feel they have the right to comment on someone else's personal experience with identity, but to argue that bisexuality inherently entails disregarding gender is false and, ironically enough, biphobic in a way. There are bisexual people who proudly claim that they DO regard gender, so when they read a definition like that by so called "battle-axe bisexuals" who claim to be warriors in fighting off biphobia, it is very much possible for them to feel invalidated.
But your points are totally legitimate because, at the end of the day, the differences are marginal in practice. Even if I disregard gender and wouldn't say something like "I like my men tall, and I like my women short", my struggles on a societal level are nothing different than that of a bisexual person who would say "I like my men tall, and I like my women short", and I think that is the key reason why we should emphasize unity over exclusion in all subsects of the LGBT community, not just the bisexual portion.
Verity Ritchie, incredible bisexual, non-binary, and transfeminine (I'm all 3 of those things too 👀) YouTuber, made an incredible video touching this subject with the attention and care it deserves, all while not saying anything harsh and exclusionary.