additional context for what Nakoichi said, the cops and soldiers killed were mostly (I say mostly as a hedge not because I have any evidence suggesting otherwise) unarmed. So please don't think the protesters were using violence against violence or anything, they were hunting down and brutally killing unarmed people.
Is police/military presence at a protest not a form of violence by way of intimidation and suppression? Even assuming none of them were armed, wouldn't their presence be a form of escalation?
And I'm surprised how empathetic and defensive you're being towards cops considering some of the other comments coming out of hexbear (1) (2) (3)
How is an unarmed person violence? Genuinely, what violence were they engaging in if a bunch of liberal students burned them alive without dying? Look up the pictures, watch the videos, Chinese police are very different than the ones we (assuming you’re in a country that’s any degree of westernized) are used to. Think the old times type of dude with bright sticks directing traffic.
Cops under capital =/= peace officers under socialism. I very much wish a terrible fate to American cops while also recognizing that that isn’t the same thing as a cop protecting the revolution. We are capable of nuance here.
Furthermore, even if I were to concede the “the presence of authority is violence” point (side note, are you a libertarian? Not trying to dunk, just wish to understand where you are coming from) the first violence was from the protestors (who were led by a woman that straight up said she wanted people to die for propaganda purposes, it’s on video, it’s on YouTube). So if we can agree that the secondary aggressor has lesser culpability then even then the “violence” of trying to keep the peace was self defense.
Oh, and do you know what the inciting incident was? The initial core of the student movement was opposing liberalization. The protest hijacked by the anti communist mentioned above (who fled to America btw, wanted her followers to die for cynical reasons yet considered herself too important).
Because that person is a cop or military member ordered there by the state specifically to oppose a protest.
Genuinely, what violence were they engaging in if a bunch of liberal students burned them alive without dying?
I don't know what you think happened June 3rd and 4th 1989 in Beijing, but I'm lead to believe that plenty of civilians died.
Look up the pictures, watch the videos, Chinese police are very different than the ones we are used to. Think the old times type of dude with bright sticks directing traffic.
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BEIJING, CHINA - 1989/06/01: Pro-democracy demonstrators sit in front of soldiers who are lined up, standing guard outside the Chinese Communist Party's headquarters on Chiangan Avenue just days before the bloody crackdown on students and protestors in and around Tiananmen Square.. (Photo by Peter Charlesworth/LightRocket via Getty Images)
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People Liberation Army (PLA) soldiers leap over a barrier on Tiananmen Square in central Beijing 04 June 1989 during heavy clashes with people and dissident students. On the night of 03 and 04 June 1989, Tiananmen Square sheltered the last pro-democracy supporters. In a show of force, China leaders vented their fury and frustration on student dissidents and their pro-democracy supporters. Several hundred people have been killed and thousands wounded when soldiers moved on Tiananmen Square during a violent military crackdown ending six weeks of student demonstrations, known as the Beijing Spring movement. According to Amnesty International, five years after the crushing of the Chinese pro-democracy movement, "thousands" of prisoners remained in jail. (Photo by CATHERINE HENRIETTE / AFP) (Photo by CATHERINE HENRIETTE/AFP via Getty Images)
Honestly, that's not the vibe I'm getting.
Cops under capital =/= peace officers under socialism. [...] while also recognizing that that isn’t the same thing as a cop protecting the revolution.
I'm actually not well versed on the topic as I'm sure you can tell, but are the people living under the revolution supposed to be able to have their complaints and desires heard? If not, who decides what the revolution's goals and priorities are, and how different is it really from the life I know in the US?
So if we can agree that the secondary aggressor has lesser culpability then even then the “violence” of trying to keep the peace was self defense.
I've always been of the opinion that those with more power and resources should bear more of the responsibility in a conflict, but maybe that's a naive way of looking at things.
additional context for what Nakoichi said, the cops and soldiers killed were mostly (I say mostly as a hedge not because I have any evidence suggesting otherwise) unarmed. So please don't think the protesters were using violence against violence or anything, they were hunting down and brutally killing unarmed people.
Is police/military presence at a protest not a form of violence by way of intimidation and suppression? Even assuming none of them were armed, wouldn't their presence be a form of escalation?
And I'm surprised how empathetic and defensive you're being towards cops considering some of the other comments coming out of hexbear (1) (2) (3)
How is an unarmed person violence? Genuinely, what violence were they engaging in if a bunch of liberal students burned them alive without dying? Look up the pictures, watch the videos, Chinese police are very different than the ones we (assuming you’re in a country that’s any degree of westernized) are used to. Think the old times type of dude with bright sticks directing traffic.
Cops under capital =/= peace officers under socialism. I very much wish a terrible fate to American cops while also recognizing that that isn’t the same thing as a cop protecting the revolution. We are capable of nuance here.
Furthermore, even if I were to concede the “the presence of authority is violence” point (side note, are you a libertarian? Not trying to dunk, just wish to understand where you are coming from) the first violence was from the protestors (who were led by a woman that straight up said she wanted people to die for propaganda purposes, it’s on video, it’s on YouTube). So if we can agree that the secondary aggressor has lesser culpability then even then the “violence” of trying to keep the peace was self defense.
Oh, and do you know what the inciting incident was? The initial core of the student movement was opposing liberalization. The protest hijacked by the anti communist mentioned above (who fled to America btw, wanted her followers to die for cynical reasons yet considered herself too important).
Because that person is a cop or military member ordered there by the state specifically to oppose a protest.
I don't know what you think happened June 3rd and 4th 1989 in Beijing, but I'm lead to believe that plenty of civilians died.
Honestly, that's not the vibe I'm getting.
I'm actually not well versed on the topic as I'm sure you can tell, but are the people living under the revolution supposed to be able to have their complaints and desires heard? If not, who decides what the revolution's goals and priorities are, and how different is it really from the life I know in the US?
I've always been of the opinion that those with more power and resources should bear more of the responsibility in a conflict, but maybe that's a naive way of looking at things.
Yo, I’m not trying to doge but drunk af rn. Mid if we reconvene tomorrow?
Ayyy it's my weekend and I spent the last two nights getting plastered at karaoke night