so is she even intersex or what, I saw some people saying she's "xy chromosome" but then others saying that's not the case. the only article I read was some vanity fair thing that said the IBA disqualified her for having too much testosterone on a test or something but that was it, and that doesn't mean shit lol
the source is “the IBA president’s ass”, the actual facts presented at the IBA:
https://www.iba.sport/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/BoD-meeting-minutes_New-Delhi_FV-approved.pdf
states that two athletes failed unidentified tests in 2022 after winning and the board let it go, then in 2023 after the two athletes were winning, new 7-day tests were performed during the tourney and also failed, but the timing allowed them to be DQed and their opponents reinstated.
The IBA president claimed on July 31st 2024, that the tests “proved” the Chinese and Algerian athletes had XY chromosomes. The actual press release same day doesn’t specify genetic testing.
It does not track that DNA tests were performed in 2022 showing XY and the athletes were not kicked out of IBA, but allowed to compete the follow year and be retested for chromosomes in 2023 just in case because for some reason the DNA could have changed.
Whatever the mystery test were performed were clearly not DNA tests or something would have been said and done earlier.
A complete lie by the IBA president, invented mere days ago, not corroborated by even a single other person or document.
?? XY individuals with complete androgen insensitivity absolutely have testosterone, they actually have a shitload of it, because their bodies don't detect it, endocrine system thinks it's not making enough and makes more to compensate. That gets converted into estrogen but not like instantly (this also usually means they have a lot of estrogen)
but I mean there's also probably more than one disorder with XY karyotypes and female phenotypes, idk. You quoted something mentioning no internal male organs but what I am familiar with they still have internal male genitalia (i.e. testes) but these typically get surgically removed when the condition is found out since iirc they pose a long term cancer risk
but I mean also yeah either way it doesn't have any bearing on whether or not she's cis or intersex, whatever testosterone test she had
yeah, was trying to improve the response and actively editing but there are multiple XY women conditions and that’s not even including having more Xs or Ys so just deleted that section
It really doesn't, the cutoffs for testorone are fairly low and an actual problem for women with, say, PCOS. It also shows that transphobes do not understand biology beyond a third grade level, because elevated testosterone has fuckall to do with a woman having XY chromosomes, not to mention that a cis woman with XY chromosomes will most likely have some form of androgen insensitivity which would mean that you could dump as much testosterone into her body as possible before it just gets converted into estrogen and it still wouldn't have a performance-enhancing effect because testosterone just doesn't work on these people. That's why they have a female phenotype in spite of the XY kariotype.
Not that it matters, nobody did a karyogram on her. We just don't know what her kariotype is, and even if it was XY, it would be irrelevant in regards to her athletic performance, as outlined above.
Yeah like testosterone means fuck all because women have testosterone... it's how they get all their estrogen lmao
a cis woman with XY chromosomes will most likely have some form of androgen insensitivity
cishet dude brain over here but this confuses me, wouldn't this person be intersex and not a "cis" woman? I'm familiar with CAIS (I learned about it in a freshman class I took about unique diseases/conditions), I like to bring it up as an example of how ignorant people be + an example for how complicated the concept of "biological" gender/sex can get. I know women with CAIS can literally go like decades being raised AFAB before ever finding out about their genetic condition (i.e. by not developing a period, or some other indicator resulting in further investigation) since they otherwise develop externally as XX individuals would
please be generous with me I'm not trying to be a debate bro gotcha lord, I'm just wondering why someone with XY chromosomes but complete androgen insensitivity wouldn't be considered "intersex woman" (and that's assuming they identify as female to begin with?) but rather a "cis woman"? Is it because they'd likely be assumed to be and raised as female from birth, so their relationship to their gender would be the same as (or at least similar to) a cis woman's compared to a trans woman's?
Not that it matters, nobody did a karyogram on her. We just don't know what her kariotype is, and even if it was XY, it would be irrelevant in regards to her athletic performance, as outlined above.
I mean yeah none of it matters since all she's guilty of is beating her opponent
I just wanted to know what is accurate in case it's brought up in conversation? Whether she's a cis woman caught up in transphobic witch hunts or intersex and caught up in transphobic witch hunts? I guess putting those words together it really doesn't matter since it's like "what's the flavor of bigotry here" but I wouldn't want to call her cis if she's not and vice versa, idk lol
cishet dude brain over here but this confuses me, wouldn't this person be intersex and not a "cis" woman?
You can be inter and cis (or inter and trans, i know several inter trans women). These are just completely different phenomena.
Inter (and its opposite, endo) is a purely biological category. Cis and trans are purely psychosocial ones, as they just mean if your gender identity matches your assigned gender at birth or not. Inter people can be men, women or nonbinary. If a person gets assigned female at birth, is raised as a girl, and identifies as a woman throughout her life, she doesn't stop being cis when she learns that she had XY chromosomes or internal testes all along, because she meets all the criteria of being cis. It just means she's an inter cis woman instead of an endo cis woman.
Idk I barely read your comment but cis just means they are the gender they were assigned at birth. Regardless of intersex condition, she was assigned female at birth and identifies as such so she is cis
My understanding is just that she had higher testosterone than some arbitrary threshold and everything else has been bullshitting.
Edit: I also want to add to my take by saying that regardless of whether she were intersex or trans the entire "controversy" is bullshit. But this is also an example of how cis women are impacted by transphobia via possibly two cascading levels of "transvestivation". First thebpeiple that originally spread unsourced claims if being XY and now people saying she is trans, all to attack her for being there.
so is she even intersex or what, I saw some people saying she's "xy chromosome" but then others saying that's not the case. the only article I read was some vanity fair thing that said the IBA disqualified her for having too much testosterone on a test or something but that was it, and that doesn't mean shit lol
the source is “the IBA president’s ass”, the actual facts presented at the IBA:
https://www.iba.sport/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/BoD-meeting-minutes_New-Delhi_FV-approved.pdf
states that two athletes failed unidentified tests in 2022 after winning and the board let it go, then in 2023 after the two athletes were winning, new 7-day tests were performed during the tourney and also failed, but the timing allowed them to be DQed and their opponents reinstated.
The IBA president claimed on July 31st 2024, that the tests “proved” the Chinese and Algerian athletes had XY chromosomes. The actual press release same day doesn’t specify genetic testing.
It does not track that DNA tests were performed in 2022 showing XY and the athletes were not kicked out of IBA, but allowed to compete the follow year and be retested for chromosomes in 2023 just in case because for some reason the DNA could have changed.
Whatever the mystery test were performed were clearly not DNA tests or something would have been said and done earlier.
A complete lie by the IBA president, invented mere days ago, not corroborated by even a single other person or document.
yeah so is the only indicator of literally anything some testosterone thing then, but she's probably a cis woman?
she’s 100% cis either way
the slightly higher t levels do not necessarily indicate anything, women without any medical conditions have it
not that it matters, but XX is far more likely
?? XY individuals with complete androgen insensitivity absolutely have testosterone, they actually have a shitload of it, because their bodies don't detect it, endocrine system thinks it's not making enough and makes more to compensate. That gets converted into estrogen but not like instantly (this also usually means they have a lot of estrogen)
but I mean there's also probably more than one disorder with XY karyotypes and female phenotypes, idk. You quoted something mentioning no internal male organs but what I am familiar with they still have internal male genitalia (i.e. testes) but these typically get surgically removed when the condition is found out since iirc they pose a long term cancer risk
but I mean also yeah either way it doesn't have any bearing on whether or not she's cis or intersex, whatever testosterone test she had
yeah, was trying to improve the response and actively editing but there are multiple XY women conditions and that’s not even including having more Xs or Ys so just deleted that section
ahhhh
Probably PCOS or something tbh
Or they just timed their cycle wrong. Let's face it, the majority of top athletes use performance enhancing drugs.
Very true
exactly what my partner just said as soon as i scrolled here!
they have PCOS and it was detected by a blood test that found elevated T levels back when they were a teen
Transphobia and
together at last.
And by at last we mean, once again
Death to amerikkka
It really doesn't, the cutoffs for testorone are fairly low and an actual problem for women with, say, PCOS. It also shows that transphobes do not understand biology beyond a third grade level, because elevated testosterone has fuckall to do with a woman having XY chromosomes, not to mention that a cis woman with XY chromosomes will most likely have some form of androgen insensitivity which would mean that you could dump as much testosterone into her body as possible before it just gets converted into estrogen and it still wouldn't have a performance-enhancing effect because testosterone just doesn't work on these people. That's why they have a female phenotype in spite of the XY kariotype.
Not that it matters, nobody did a karyogram on her. We just don't know what her kariotype is, and even if it was XY, it would be irrelevant in regards to her athletic performance, as outlined above.
Yeah like testosterone means fuck all because women have testosterone... it's how they get all their estrogen lmao
cishet dude brain over here but this confuses me, wouldn't this person be intersex and not a "cis" woman? I'm familiar with CAIS (I learned about it in a freshman class I took about unique diseases/conditions), I like to bring it up as an example of how ignorant people be + an example for how complicated the concept of "biological" gender/sex can get. I know women with CAIS can literally go like decades being raised AFAB before ever finding out about their genetic condition (i.e. by not developing a period, or some other indicator resulting in further investigation) since they otherwise develop externally as XX individuals would
please be generous with me I'm not trying to be a debate bro gotcha lord, I'm just wondering why someone with XY chromosomes but complete androgen insensitivity wouldn't be considered "intersex woman" (and that's assuming they identify as female to begin with?) but rather a "cis woman"? Is it because they'd likely be assumed to be and raised as female from birth, so their relationship to their gender would be the same as (or at least similar to) a cis woman's compared to a trans woman's?
I mean yeah none of it matters since all she's guilty of is beating her opponent
I just wanted to know what is accurate in case it's brought up in conversation? Whether she's a cis woman caught up in transphobic witch hunts or intersex and caught up in transphobic witch hunts? I guess putting those words together it really doesn't matter since it's like "what's the flavor of bigotry here" but I wouldn't want to call her cis if she's not and vice versa, idk lol
You can be inter and cis (or inter and trans, i know several inter trans women). These are just completely different phenomena.
Inter (and its opposite, endo) is a purely biological category. Cis and trans are purely psychosocial ones, as they just mean if your gender identity matches your assigned gender at birth or not. Inter people can be men, women or nonbinary. If a person gets assigned female at birth, is raised as a girl, and identifies as a woman throughout her life, she doesn't stop being cis when she learns that she had XY chromosomes or internal testes all along, because she meets all the criteria of being cis. It just means she's an inter cis woman instead of an endo cis woman.
Oh okay got it
Idk I barely read your comment but cis just means they are the gender they were assigned at birth. Regardless of intersex condition, she was assigned female at birth and identifies as such so she is cis
the IBA president whose lie is the only source for the XY claim just announced that if Khelif wins a gold medal the IBA will pay her 100,000
he’s absolutely just trolling on a world stage
My understanding is just that she had higher testosterone than some arbitrary threshold and everything else has been bullshitting.
Edit: I also want to add to my take by saying that regardless of whether she were intersex or trans the entire "controversy" is bullshit. But this is also an example of how cis women are impacted by transphobia via possibly two cascading levels of "transvestivation". First thebpeiple that originally spread unsourced claims if being XY and now people saying she is trans, all to attack her for being there.