How so? I literally don't see it. My apologies if I come across as obnoxious, but I simply don't understand how I might have contradicted myself. I never explicitly mentioned Debian anyways, so why did you feel the need to mention that as somehow being related to a supposed contradiction.
Interestingly, while Madaidan discourages the use of systemd in that guide, it’s still heavily relied on in Kicksecure; one of the distros he works on.
While you didn't explicitly state it, it's a distro that's based on Debian, so, has to be based on systemd.
I think this is a perfect illustration of how systemd has become so good that even opponents can’t deny its merits and continue to make use of it for the time being out of necessity.
No, not at all. You said it yourself:
It’s troublesome if distros and/or DEs rely so heavily on systemd to do their bidding. So much so, that some combinations of distro + DE don’t allow any differentiation in init or make it very cumbersome and unwieldy at best.
So trying to use Kicksecure without systemd would be very cumbersome and unwieldy at best. Perhaps Madaidan should've used Devuan as a starting point instead.
In case you're bored enough to read my ramblings and/or interested in what I understood and how, then consider reading the spoiler below.
spoiler
Fam, you're all over the place.
Because you did an awful job at pointing at the supposed contradiction, I'll have to analyze your excuse of an elaboration so that it somehow starts to make sense if at all:
A contradiction consists of N statements that logically contradict with each other; for the sake of making it more precise we'll refer to these statements as P, Q, R, S etc. After we've established this, we can move on to find what these alleged statements are from your comments. My best take would be:
(Supposed) Contradicting Statements:
P: systemd is the only init that's beyond a particular level of excellence and/or feature set.[1]
Q: Some combinations of distro + DE are cumbersome and unwieldy at best if systemd is not used.[2]
Perhaps some other related statements that are either implied or a given/fact:
R: Kicksecure uses systemd as its init.
S: Modern distros use an init.
T: Default init is chosen based on preference[3].
U: Kicksecure has to use systemd because P despite not being in favor of some aspects of its design.
Please feel free to notify me if I missed the mark!
Don't you think that P and Q are actually complementary to one other?
No, not at all.
The crux might be here. But I'm not sure where exactly you might have tripped over. Was it because I said "opponents" instead of "(some) opponents"? Was it because I said "out of necessity", while elsewhere I said "don’t allow any differentiation in init or make it very cumbersome and unwieldy at best", but in this case they aren't contradictory statements. Was it the fact that Devuan exists? But, this assumes that any of the inits found on Devuan are somehow as mature and feature-rich as systemd. Which, unfortunately, is simply not the case. (I'm hopeful that dinit and s6 might reach maturity soon, though.)
So trying to use Kicksecure without systemd would be very cumbersome and unwieldy at best.
Exactly, that was my point.
Perhaps Madaidan should’ve used Devuan as a starting point instead.
It's a team effort, I don't even know if he started working on Kicksecure from its inception[4]. They might also simply be victims of the sunk-cost fallacy. Furthermore, I wouldn't be surprised if -to them- systemd's pros simply outweigh its cons. Which, curiously, gets us back to the entire point of my original comment; viable alternatives to systemd don't exist. This painful truth is not only sad and unfortunate, but perhaps even worrisome for the future of Linux.
From: "systemd has become so good that even opponents can’t deny its merits and continue to make use of it for the time being out of necessity"
From: "some combinations of distro + DE don’t allow any differentiation in init or make it very cumbersome and unwieldy at best."
Preference is arguably too broad of a term, but I wanted to make clear that distro maintainers have different priorities.
This page suggest otherwise, simply because someone else is referred to as founder. Though, ultimately, I don't know.
If not 😜; did I understand you correctly in that the mere existence of Devuan is the supposed contradiction?
I don't think systemd is the epitome of technological evolution, but that's another rant. The fact that it's not just another init system is at the center of it, though.
Because it's not, any distro that chooses to use it is, in fact, adopting a whole ecosystem. Some apps that predate systemd are even hard-depending on it for... reasons. Can you use GNOME without it? Why most distros adopted it as default instead of an alternative i can only speculate. At least Slackware hasn't adopted it so far and Gentoo took, to me, the sanest approach: you can choose your init system, including systemd if you so prefer.
Devuan is the response to Debian choosing systemd. It's its raison d'être, to be Debian without systemd.
I was unaware of Kicksecure, who their founder is and when they decided to adopt systemd, so i may be at fault here.
With this i agree:
It’s troublesome if distros and/or DEs rely so heavily on systemd to do their bidding. So much so, that some combinations of distro + DE don’t allow any differentiation in init or make it very cumbersome and unwieldy at best.
With this, i don't:
systemd has become so good that even opponents can’t deny its merits and continue to make use of it
And this is where i think you've contradicted yourself. IMO, the only reason opponents use it is not because it's so great but because it's so entrenched in whichever distro they're using.
Thanks a lot for this excellent write-up! I believe it has successfully fulfilled its purpose.
To make myself absolutely clear: I believe that we agree on our general sentiment towards systemd; I don't like how it has almost ostracized other inits, nor do I like how ever-impactful it has become across the board so much so that even the most established DE (read: GNOME) has had hard dependencies to systemd in the past[1].
And this is where i think you’ve contradicted yourself. IMO, the only reason opponents use it is not because it’s so great but because it’s so entrenched in whichever distro they’re using.
Got it! I see now why you might have perceived that as a contradiction. And honestly, you might be correct! I assumed that systemd is used for how it might enable the full system AppArmor policy[2] and other features that Kicksecure has become known for. Honestly, I'm not an expert on Kicksecure myself. I just like the project and even try to import some of their systemd-related features and/or configs on my daily driver.
Based on past readings, the idea that systemd was (ironically) still preferred on Kicksecure for security-related features stuck with me. But, honestly, it could have been my misunderstanding and instead they might have chosen to make the best out of it as not using systemd would have increased the maintenance burden tremendously.
This conversation has opened the possibility to me that Kicksecure's maintainers might have stuck to systemd for non-security reasons. Ultimately, your contribution by addressing that point has been immense. Thank you so much for the insight and for being patient with me 😊!
Considering Kicksecure is based on Debian, aren't you contradicting yourself?
How so? I literally don't see it. My apologies if I come across as obnoxious, but I simply don't understand how I might have contradicted myself. I never explicitly mentioned Debian anyways, so why did you feel the need to mention that as somehow being related to a supposed contradiction.
Fine, i'll bite, i'm bored.
While you didn't explicitly state it, it's a distro that's based on Debian, so, has to be based on systemd.
No, not at all. You said it yourself:
So trying to use Kicksecure without systemd would be very cumbersome and unwieldy at best. Perhaps Madaidan should've used Devuan as a starting point instead.
In case you're bored enough to read my ramblings and/or interested in what I understood and how, then consider reading the spoiler below.
spoiler
Fam, you're all over the place.
Because you did an awful job at pointing at the supposed contradiction, I'll have to analyze your excuse of an elaboration so that it somehow starts to make sense if at all:
A contradiction consists of N statements that logically contradict with each other; for the sake of making it more precise we'll refer to these statements as P, Q, R, S etc. After we've established this, we can move on to find what these alleged statements are from your comments. My best take would be:
(Supposed) Contradicting Statements:
Perhaps some other related statements that are either implied or a given/fact:
Please feel free to notify me if I missed the mark!
Don't you think that P and Q are actually complementary to one other?
The crux might be here. But I'm not sure where exactly you might have tripped over. Was it because I said "opponents" instead of "(some) opponents"? Was it because I said "out of necessity", while elsewhere I said "don’t allow any differentiation in init or make it very cumbersome and unwieldy at best", but in this case they aren't contradictory statements. Was it the fact that Devuan exists? But, this assumes that any of the inits found on Devuan are somehow as mature and feature-rich as systemd. Which, unfortunately, is simply not the case. (I'm hopeful that dinit and s6 might reach maturity soon, though.)
Exactly, that was my point.
It's a team effort, I don't even know if he started working on Kicksecure from its inception[4]. They might also simply be victims of the sunk-cost fallacy. Furthermore, I wouldn't be surprised if -to them- systemd's pros simply outweigh its cons. Which, curiously, gets us back to the entire point of my original comment; viable alternatives to systemd don't exist. This painful truth is not only sad and unfortunate, but perhaps even worrisome for the future of Linux.
If not 😜; did I understand you correctly in that the mere existence of Devuan is the supposed contradiction?
Big spoiler there.
I don't think systemd is the epitome of technological evolution, but that's another rant. The fact that it's not just another init system is at the center of it, though.
Because it's not, any distro that chooses to use it is, in fact, adopting a whole ecosystem. Some apps that predate systemd are even hard-depending on it for... reasons. Can you use GNOME without it? Why most distros adopted it as default instead of an alternative i can only speculate. At least Slackware hasn't adopted it so far and Gentoo took, to me, the sanest approach: you can choose your init system, including systemd if you so prefer.
Devuan is the response to Debian choosing systemd. It's its raison d'être, to be Debian without systemd.
I was unaware of Kicksecure, who their founder is and when they decided to adopt systemd, so i may be at fault here.
With this i agree:
With this, i don't:
And this is where i think you've contradicted yourself. IMO, the only reason opponents use it is not because it's so great but because it's so entrenched in whichever distro they're using.
Thanks a lot for this excellent write-up! I believe it has successfully fulfilled its purpose.
To make myself absolutely clear: I believe that we agree on our general sentiment towards systemd; I don't like how it has almost ostracized other inits, nor do I like how ever-impactful it has become across the board so much so that even the most established DE (read: GNOME) has had hard dependencies to systemd in the past[1].
Got it! I see now why you might have perceived that as a contradiction. And honestly, you might be correct! I assumed that systemd is used for how it might enable the full system AppArmor policy[2] and other features that Kicksecure has become known for. Honestly, I'm not an expert on Kicksecure myself. I just like the project and even try to import some of their systemd-related features and/or configs on my daily driver.
Based on past readings, the idea that systemd was (ironically) still preferred on Kicksecure for security-related features stuck with me. But, honestly, it could have been my misunderstanding and instead they might have chosen to make the best out of it as not using systemd would have increased the maintenance burden tremendously.
This conversation has opened the possibility to me that Kicksecure's maintainers might have stuck to systemd for non-security reasons. Ultimately, your contribution by addressing that point has been immense. Thank you so much for the insight and for being patient with me 😊!