I voted blue no matter who to stop fascism in 2020 and now the guy I voted for is enabling a genocide. What was the fucking point?
both parties are fascist -- the only real difference is rhetoric -- so you shouldn't support them in any way (and voting in USian presidential elections is a complete waste of time, anyway)
At times the difference is that one party pretends otherwise.
Now they just give different reasons.
No - voting for the ‘lesser’ fascist is still supporting fascism.
Nope. Fuck 'em. Buy a tool, get certified with it, get concealed carry with it, spend at least an hour a week at your local range learning it. That chrome will save you a whole lot sooner and a whole lot more often than the Genocider Blue party.
We shouldn't focus on the "should you vote" but rather on the "should you spend energy and time convincing people to vote" and that's a clear NO
Elections are demoralising and confusing, trying to get people to vote is excruciating because nothing about voting in bourgeois regimes is about real politics.
Let liberals do their shit, treat those elections as vacations from real organising if you can't escape electoralism, and if your org is based enough keep doing real solidarity and ideological work!
Even if you wanted to mitigate fascist policies, it has become very obvious, especially recently, that the tactic of voting "the lesser of two evils" is total bullshit. Even if you voted for PSL or some other third party, you are making a statement, which still does more power to make the ruling class shake in their boots. It's like how more people using Linux makes Microsoft more worried (just an analogy, maybe not completely true) than people asking for change within Windows. Even if you wanted to vote blue, what anti-war, anti-imperialist option even exists? Every single last one of those fuckers have betrayed us. Do you want to be covertly stabbed in the back or overtly stabbed in the face?
If you want to actually create change, organize with your local socialist party and volunteer and participate. Try to unionize your workplace. Help with mutual aid. Interact with people and help them join or even just support our cause. The reason PSL is running in the election (Claudia & Karina) is not with the expectation to win, but to utilize the most optimal time when most people are paying attention in politics every four years to help bring class consciousness. This is the current stage we are in, and we are working hard to build a movement for the long term.
Do not expect your local socialist party to be perfect. Do not wait for the perfect party. It will never come. To see change, we must organize now.
Solidarity forever!
We have nothing to lose but our chains!
I'm going to be honest about this topic. I think the Democrats are actually better at passing the worst of the Republican legislation, but without getting caught or protested against as badly.
What was some of the biggest things that people were complaining about under Republican leadership? Building the wall.. Anit-Abortion.. Both of these things are coming true under Democratic leadership and with far less public outcry than under the Republican leadership.
Make no mistake, Trump is a moron and a fascist and deserves to be treated as such. However, the more competent Democrats have been able to bring forward the worst of the Republican policies and effectively become Democratic policies of their own.
Something else to consider though, is all of the stuff that was not publicized that happened under the Trump leadership. continued deregulation of corporations, continued corporate welfare and a myriad of other anti-democracy policies. Trump made so many presidential declarations that the news just couldn't even handle every stupid thing he was doing.
And the vast majority of those stupid things have not been rolled back, have not been touched since Biden has been in office.
So long as things aren't publicized, so they aren't criticized so heavily, the Democrats are very willing to let the fascist policies of the Republican Party pass and even help push them along if they can convince their body of constituents that it's only because they're compromising.
After all of that, you may be surprised to hear that I still think that a Republican president would be worse. After all, they are the ones that are creating these policies. The Democrats just help soften the blows when they come into office and don't undo them, or even push them along further.
But all of the insane liberals out there that believe that if you don't vote Democrat, that that means that you're voting for Republicans, are just blinded to the fact that there really is no democracy in the United States. If you have to vote for one of the two parties, and both parties basically hace the same policies, then there really isn't a choice. This is the illusion of choice. And in reality, we have a one-party system that disagrees on only a few aspects of governance. And they only disagree in so far as the Democrats have to save face a little bit more often than the Republicans do, since at this point in time, the Republicans are basically masks off about being fascists.
A third party vote is symbolic. And it also pisses off the liberals. Revolution is the only thing that will change anything in this fucking country anyway.
I personally don’t want to vote for Democrats because A.) They haven’t earned my vote. The only Dem who did was Bernie, and even then, I was making concessions by doing that. Biden or Buttigieg or whoever tf all support Israel, Ukraine, Taiwan and whatever other garbage Neoliberal opposition to working class solidarity there is. B.) To vote for the Dem means to support them. End of the day, nobody’s forcing you to vote. It’s optional to vote, and if every candidate sucks, why choose to personally give a platform to that one “lesser of two evils” candidate? They sucked just as much 2 minutes ago before you learned that the Republican is a bit worse. C.)(similar to point A) To a certain extent it doesn’t matter what you vote for. Biden is a SPECTACULAR example. Trump stood for building the Southern Border Wall, not giving A FUCK about Covid-19 and was very very Pro-Israel and anti-anything to do with AES. Look at Biden, he didn’t do much more drastic measures to deal with Covid, he still fear-mongers about AES, even after he JUST met with Xi Jinping. And Idk if I even have to outline his support for open genocide that’s happening in Palestine by IDF. He tries to bullshit us every second. It’s infuriating and I refuse to personally support him. He’s also supporting building the Southern border wall. WTF?!I really love politics tho, so I may just waste my time for shits and giggles and do a write in vote as a joke for myself. I’m 80% sure that the Ghost of Pee Wee Herman could lead this country better than all 46 administrations so far
No doubt, I voted for him in the past, before I really knew shit about his Israel takes, I just thought he was a good DemSoc, turns out he’s a SocDem, which as arbitrary as it may sound makes all the difference. 0/5 Stars Would not recommend lol
The Dems often fund the campaigns of the worst of the worst Republicans because they believe them to be easier to beat in elections. Their whole plan is to be just slightly less bad than the worst that the Republicans have to offer. The modern Dems need the Republican party. This means, of course, that they will strongly defend the Republican party rather than defeat it. http://archive.today/xRPOo
No, because then what happens in the next election? You just do the same thing again? Then again? Then again? You aren't going to solve a problem by just twiddling your thumbs and hoping it solves itself. The best solution at the moment is to vote for a third party. I won't lie and pretend it's a perfect solution but it at least has a better chance of making some type of progress than just doing the same thing the libs have been attempting for decades with absolutely nothing to show for it
Project 2025 has shown there is a sustained and well funded effort to turn the U.S. into a literal Christo-Fascist state.
Th USA has always been, since even before it's founding, a Christo-Fascist state. Even more to the point, North Atlantic fascism is inherently Christian, so what purpose does the Christo prefix serve?
Since the Europeans came to this land, they have used Christianity as their rationale for mass murder, mass rape, child separation, castration, starvation, slave labor, concentration camps, death camps, environmental devastation, strictural misogyny, structural racism, all out war, religious persecution, mutilation, human medical experimentation, and eugenics. I probably missed a few.
Ruth Bader Ginsberg, paragon of blue virtue, wrote a majority opinion establishing the Doctrine of Discovery as the legal basis for the country. The Doctrine of Discovery is part and parcel of the white patriarchal religious decrees that also directed Europeans to kill most of the brown people they met, enslave the rest, break their minds and bodies, forcibly breed them closer to whiteness, and destroy every remnant of their culture even those parts that are carried in the mind.
So when we say the Dems are the same as the Rs, we're serious. They both oversee and maintain the pinnacle of the North Atlantic fascist project, which is patriarchal white Christian fascism, the only type of fascism that has existed in the Euro-centric world (e.g. all of the Western hemisphere, all of Europe, and all of the European colonies globally).
The Ds and the Rs hold rhetorically different positions, and they take some actions to virtue signal in order to provide cover for their rhetoric. But Trump used Title 42 to deny asylum and put people in concentration camps, then Biden said this is bad and stopped doing it to unaccompanied minors, but increased total enforcement by multiples.
The Ds are not a counter weight to fascism. They are collaborators
In good faith, I do ask my fellow comrades what the end goal is if Trump is elected though?
And likewise, what is the end goal with Biden, or anyone else?
I haven’t made up my mind if I’ll vote for Biden yet, but I am incredibly scared that if Trump wins, I may not be around much to fight back against Trump if he is elected.
Something that strikes me with all of these justifications I see from Americans about why they have no choice but to support a system that produces malicious, mass murdering white supremacists like Biden is the selfishism inherent in the excuses. The smol bean idpol self pity. "I'm trans so he'll genocide me instead of millions of foreigners." is a common one I'm seeing around. Or worse again, "I have to protect my trans allies by supporting genocide."
If someone puts a gun to my head and tells me to kill someone else or they'll kill me, you know what, I'm not killing anyone. Let them kill me, I'm not playing their game.
Something like 4.5 million dead in your name over the past 20 years and it's all "poor me, if I don't help them do these things then I might suffer instead".
Nobody's saying you have to go on an adventurist spree but you need to absolutely not be taking part and be prepared to lose all your friends and family over this latest atrocity. This one's the worst in quite a while. You'll have plenty of license to run your mouth at length.
Biden can be voted for as a means to an end. Vote by mail and be done with it. Don't run your mouth about it as if you did a great service to your country and only treat it like paying a parking ticket that has a slight chance to slow fascism. More time should be spent building a party that has a means of overtaking this wreached system. I notice that most socialist parties either have no idea how to sieze power or are keeping their cards to their chests (for good reason).
No the major strategy is not voting clearly. Any real work to build socialism will take alot more time than it takes to fill out a ballot. I'm just suggesting to fill out a ballot and mail it because why not. It is a tool available that might be less awful. Treat it like paying a speeding ticket, shamefully do it and don't bother to tell anyone about it. Let your real work be outside the electoral process.
because why not
It's demeaning to you and directly supports a fascist system.
Ok its all about ego then, not anything practical. If it hurts ya that much, then yea don't do it. Put in all efforts towards building socialism comrade.
What do you see as the practical benefits of supporting fascism? If we were back at the last election you would have voted for genocide.
It's not that it hurts me personally, it hurts the working class of your country. I already put in efforts to build socialism.
Technically speaking, between Joe Biden and Donald Trump, I don't think that there would be a difference in their policy towards Palistine. Thus, your actions via voting have 0 impact on genocide. In America, one can't not choose fascism. No vote => fascism. Vote red => fascism. Vote blue => fascism. There are some small particular differences between red and blue. Team red explicitly wants sexual minorities to suffer. Team blue does not. Team red wants to ban books. Team blue does not. There are some small differences. You can choose to vote to influence the result if you are in the part of the country that the funhouse mirror of the US election system cares about.
You can vote on the small differences to slow down even worse harm that the state will do to the people domestically. Those small differences seem to be diminishing each election cycle. Unionizing, educating people on how capitalism works, protesting, , all can push socialism more effectively, I don't dispute it.
I don't see how voting hurts the working class as a whole. Between the choice of voting vs not voting, can you tell me based on material results, how voting is a worse choice than not voting? In many cases I'd understand the explanation its a waste of time for someone because of their location is heavily weighted towards team red or blue already. The working class is screwed regardless of voting vs not voting. In those cases the material difference between voting and not voting is the feeling of the individual voter. Thus I say that the only real reason not to vote is because of one's feelings. However if one is in a place that the system cares about, one can vote for the least awful option for the small material differences between red and blue.
That is my understanding. The real reason not to vote is because the only real difference is likely that the cost of how bad it makes you feel outweighs what you understand the very minor positive results of your actions (and in many cases no change at all). I'm just saying don't deny it is about your feelings. Where is my logic faulty?
In America, one can’t not choose fascism.
You do that by not voting for it.
No vote => fascism.
Yes but not with your support.
Between the choice of voting vs not voting, can you tell me based on material results, how voting is a worse choice than not voting?
Not voting doesn't cost you your morality. Voting to support fascism makes you a fascist enabler. Complaining that you're a willing hostage doesn't cut it or give you any ethical excuse.
You're gambling that you think you know which is worse. You got it wrong last time, Biden's genocide proves that even if his war in Ukraine didn't already. And now you want to gamble again, betting your soul on it.
Where is my logic faulty?
The whole "justifying the support of genocides abroad" because it might alleviate the suffering of a tiny sliver of a percentage of Americans, who are 4% of the world part. i guess American
livescomfortareis more important.
You are validated in feeling anxious about another Trump presidency, but it's pretty inevitible at this point (of course I could be wrong). Understand that the Democrats are not here to stop that, but to lay out a red carpet for the Republicans. The current genocide in Palestine and the backlash from it in all likelihood could be the death of the Dems. And the neocons in the Democratic Party are perfectly okay with that.
Trump will win because the ruling class needs Trump back in office. They see the writing on the wall.
