They're too fuckin dumb to understand nuanced material critique, so all you're doing is giving them ammo to justify their own anticommunist biases from a left lens. There is no nuance in mainstream politics and the discussions therein, only extremes of black and white, with freedom countries on one and evil dictatorships on the other. Stop it.
JoeySteel comrade/them banned
I hate having to be a walking encyclopedia of leftist knowledge
Capitalists can just be like “dude look at this NPR article socialism is bad”
Meanwhile I have to have an extensive understanding of philosophy, history, science, economics and politics in order to justify my worldview.
Sometimes I forget that people don’t have comprehensive world views, and accidentally say something’s CIA propaganda, then have to go through that whole process of explaining how the CIA having fronts and interfering in global affairs isn’t a conspiracy, it’s just reality, and that finding sources about it isn’t the same as finding sources for an 8th grade book report, because it’s the goddamn CIA! Shits exhausting and sucks balls, I just want to be dumb I know I’m right bitch, get off my dick
You don’t need to be.
I’ve been trying to popularise this amongst the left (actual left not synthetic left ie. those that demand as the lowest bar for “being left” the absolute and complete destruction of Western imperialism and Western capitalism. Not the synthetic left labour aristocrats that try to “both sides” shit when it comes to Russia/China/Iran/INSERT_WESTS_ENEMY_IT_WANTS_BALKANISE_AND_DESTORY_FOR_NEW_MARKETS)
Is that we should all be learning from conservatives and particularly Roger Stone
Who’s philosophy is Never defend, Attack, Attack, Attack
Some cuckold brings up the wildly discredited black book of communism “100 million dead under gommies” bring up the fact that British capitalism is responsible for 1.8 billion indian deaths alone so surely 100 million dead from every communist country in the 20th century is a million times better than 1 capitalist nation? If they change tact point out under the metrics of that defined “100 million dead” India achieves that every 20 years
Another cuckold brings up Xinjiang (a recent topic) point out that the US has starved 27 million Yeminis in a completely manmade famine which is over double the population of Xinjiang so why don’t they shut their fucking mouth and focus on a problem they can at least pressure their government about.
They bring up the falsified “slaves picking cotton in Xinjiang” (an obviously emotionally charged call to USsians with US particular history) point out how come they have no problem with slave children farming chocolate in the Ivory Coast , the fact that Burmese slaves are pumped full of amphetamines and tied to the prows of boats and pulled apart if they disobey orders or how come they have no problem with the child slaves of the Congo mining coltan for their mobile phones and laptops?
Bring up the fact that only 2 years the US army was bombing the Uyghurs in the East Turkestan Islamic Movement which the US designated as terrorists up until this year
You can adjust your honesty, disingenuous, vitriol and disgust at liberals and conservatives with depending on how dishonest and disingenuous they’re being but leftists should understand that even the “well meaning liberals” that at least pretend to be based in reality are in fact disingenuous, disgusting gaslighting pieces of shit and you should have no moral qualm about being as disingenuous, flexible with reality or gaslighting in return.
In for a penny out for a pound
These lib and conservative disgusting pieces of shit that now pretend to care about muslim lives in Xinjiang (definitely the human rights they care about and not the geopolitical rivalry opening up between West and China) remind them that they said nothing whilst the US sanctioned Iraq to the point half a million children died in Iraq and the US secretary of state went on TV to tell people “it was worth it” and that they have literally murdered millions of muslims since they began funding the head chopping jihadis in the 80s where Osama Bin Laden built up his networks in the Muhajadeen
You don’t owe these people anything and you should start viewing how you interact with them as a game for your entertainment
--Our fallen comrade @JoeySteel
They posted too close to the sun.
bring up sanctions, embargoes, drone strikes, manmade famines, every single capitalist atrocity you can think of
Here's a cheat sheet: https://github.com/dessalines/essays/blob/master/us_atrocities.md
I think most of us are familiar with this list by now, but it is such a great resource I always plug it when I can. XKCD 1053
we should all be learning from conservatives and particularly Roger Stone
The issue I see here is that conservatives like Roger Stone are speaking to conservatives and people who lean conservative. "Attack attack attack" works well when your audience is already sympathetic to your position, but I don't think it works that well when your audience starts off hostile to your position. If they're predisposed to disagree with you they'll jump on any opportunity to write you off so they don't have to engage with the substance of your argument. "We're talking about communist countries, you're doing a whataboutism" is exactly that sort of opportunity.
A better approach is to refute as concisely as possible, then attack, and -- most importantly -- finish with some tangible way a leftist policy would improve life right here, right now (i.e., not in some AES state that may not even exist anymore). For example, if someone trots out "communism killed 1,877,983 kabillion:"
The type of wild guesses you see in the Black Book of Communism have been disavowed by their authors as politically motivated. They include Nazis killed in WWII, for example. And if you apply their methods for "preventable deaths" to capitalist countries, capitalism kills tens of millions every year due to preventable conditions like hunger, homelessness, and lack of basic medical care. Think of how many people in the U.S. can't get healthcare and die preventable deaths from a condition that should have been identified and treated early. Universal healthcare would save a bunch of lives, but we choose not to do it.
Good points on bullying. It has its place, but it's not a one-size-fits-all tool. It can definitely backfire (people often dig in out of spite) and we think too highly of it because we like doing it.
As for winning people over in the imperial core, I think there are at least two promising strategies:
- Short term: Find some egregious failing of capitalism, propose some tangible leftist solution, then beat that drum as loudly and as often as possible. This is the "Medicare for All" approach. You'll get a lot of people to listen to you because the leftist solution makes too damn much sense, and you can start them down the path to leftism from there.
- Long term: Get people into media criticism in the Chomsky/Herman/Parenti vein. This is the "Citations Needed" approach. This is more for people who are less affected by the most egregious failings of capitalism, and who are therefore more insulated from the "Medicare for All" approach. If you can get them into media criticism from a more academic/wonky perspective, they might end up doing a lot of leftist education on their own.
If our main objective is class war, then we know how to identify our enemies. We should be absolutely unrelenting in attacking our enemies. The thing is though, Neoliberalism has absolutely fucked the class alignment of our political system, so to make progress we are going to be pissing of a lot of liberals as well as a lot of chuds. There is no way around this. It is a prerequisite of returning to class-aligned politics.
To fart huffing liberals, they best way to attack our enemies is to indict them. Prove that they have committed a crime, and pin them on their tendencies towards institutional fetishism (rule of law, science). You cannot reconcile the idealistic liberal framework with the way capitalism materially functions. The entire state is an irreconcilable conflict of interest. A rat's nest of administrators plagued by their own personal conflicts of interest. They're all criminals. Chase those receipts and spread them as far as you can. Do some shoe-leather journalism if you must. Get them invested in seeing justice, and let the institutions radicalize them by failing completely. (Ironically, the Russiagate shit turned me from a turbo-lib to a constitutional abolitionist within two years. You mean to tell me this guy is an unprecedented threat to the republic, hype up this special prosecutor, then throw the report in the trash the minute you got it? The whole system is a fucking joke.)
The reactionaries are another story. They don't give a shit about justice. You will never convince them to accept anything positive on the basis of a moral argument. We generally should assume their brains are melted, but their brains are melted in a few particular ways. The reactionary media inculcates them with intense hatred for many figures of the elite. Many of these figures are also our enemies. Especially now, since the Trump phenomenon has introduced new fissures into the right and the base is discarding figures like Rumsfeld like trash.
The way to reach reactionaries is to eviscerate these lightning rod figures better than they could ever dream of, but to do it in such a way that the criticism cannot be co-opted. These people are crybabies who are convinced that the system is rigged against them in particular. In this way, they are the opposite of Liberals, who have such strong faith in the institutions that they would die on the cross for them.
When the chuds not busy teeing off on homeless people or revolutionaries, we can push the narrative that yes, the system is rigged against you but point to the actual material ways this happens, doing our best to shut down the braindead structurally antisemetic and racist nonsense. These people are selfish bastards who only care about themselves, but if they are selfish proletarian bastards, we can show them how they in particular are being screwed over, and how the class struggle is the least of their worries.
normies
:cringe: I think a good step 0 is not referring to fellow workers this way.
They’re too fuckin dumb to understand
It's not a matter of intelligence or ability to understand "nuance", that's a liberal-ass statement and also ableist. Decades and decades of exposure to the most powerful propaganda machine in history is what shuts people off from even considering the smallest fraction of leftist ideas.
I think saying dprk is the shining beacon will turn more people away tbh, just adopt consistent libertarian (og meaning) stance to other countries. Like “yeah, maybe they suck, but they should be able to trade for oil or food, otherwise it’s a siege” . Or you have to spend deworming 70 years of history, which in the end will be forgotten in one news cycle
No, you misunderstand. Don't even bring it up. Don't even bother discussing it except to say that embargoes don't work and only harm the people living there. If you want to delve a bit further on the (mistaken) assumption that you're not talking to a semi-sentient piece of garden furniture, you can say that the reason these countries are kinda fucked up is directly because of the economic and social embargoes.
Carefully explaining the nuances of AES states to rabid anti-communists is a great use of one's time, and they are definitely intelligent or educated enough to retain the knowledge imparted onto them, and arguing with them, especially on social media, is a better use of time than IRL organizing.
By the way, I'm selling a piece of prime real estate in the form of a bridge, DM me if you're interested. Mate's rates for fellow chapobears.
I can't confirm what you say regarding talking to and convincing rabid anti-communists. The tactic did work to influence an audience however since it happened to me when I was a lurker. I was already "primed" for it though by being at least anti-capitalist. I will say that these things take time to bear fruit.
I don't believe you, but since there's no way to prove or disprove it, I'll say good job to you, keep up the good work.
I expect nothing of the Western left, and it will achieve nothing until the west is destroyed
I mean if this is the case then it really doesn’t matter what we say to Libs are all and therefore this entire post is pointless
Hard disagree. You should choose your battles and framing, but spreading anti-imperialism is your absolute duty as a Western leftist and it requires defending AES states. If you don't, you're going to end up supporting their internalized anticommunist propaganda, something that is far worse than alienating them because your views are so different from theirs.
And to be competent at this, you need to read a lot of history, since their misunderstanding is hegemonic and you have to displace it.
If my duty is to argue with a wall, then I'd rather use my time to engage in direct action. The anti-war movement is probably one of the most relevant and accessible forms of anti-imperialism, it's easier to convince the average uneducated buffoon that war is materially negative for them as well as those on the receiving end than it is to condense 70 years of history which will be inevitably dismissed as lies.
Anti-war messaging has anti-imperial effects, but doesn't require you to dive into conversations most libs aren't ready for. Besides, there's a pathway from general anti-war sentiment to more specific anti-imperialism (and even stuff like critical support for AES states).
Totally reasonable to go with the anti-war direction, I agree that has a good balance between anti-imperialist action and pipelining libs.
I was working under the assumption that you wanted to talk to libs but radicalize them carefully by avoiding defending AES, but I think I misunderstood.
Idk if it only works in academic discussions, but yeah know your audience. Assert the right to self determination and unquestioning hostility to US imperialism and its obvious propaganda. Don't try to justify the questionable stuff AES states do from time to time unless you're with someone who is willing to learn.
I would mostly agree, but would also say mindlessly stanning AES states is just gonna make you look like some brain washed turd. At some point Libs are gonna ask you to list the accomplishment of socialism, cuz if all you do is go on the attack and list the horrors of capitalism they’ll just retort that socialism has always failed and therefore while capitalism may suck socialism is worse. We can’t really act like the USSR was heaven tho.
