I feel like I'm swimming upstream in polluted water when I read other works out there for purposes of trying to see how something I would want to write might fit in.
It's bad.
A lot of what I skimmed over were Mass Effect clones, but somehow further right wing than Mass Effect already was, with the names changed and the numbers filed off.
A lot of what's left involves "humanity fuck yeah" space imperialism, grizzled tough guys with cold piercing stares and powerlifter physiques well into old age and their adventures with brilliant and hot scientist women that are defined more about who their father is/was and less by their actual job, that try to prove they are Independent Strong Willed Women but of course swoon for the timeless grizzled ego insert's blandly stoic charms. Also, a space bureaucracy usually interferes with the grizzled tough guy's very important imperialistic mission and his only chance to save humanity is to go rogue with a ragtag bunch of renegades and kill those filthy aliens before they threaten colonial interests. Or something.
I got some pretty harsh negative feedback for my inclusion of ideas in my own work. The idea that billionaires wanting to colonize Mars aren't actually going to save humanity by doing that and it would be an insatiable resource sink that would further accelerate Earth's decay was especially incendiary. Maybe I should have already become a rich and influential writer first before trying something like that, but that seems like it might have involved writing one of the above reactionary works instead and hoping another off-brand Mass Effect got more traction instead.
I'm demoralized, but I'm also nearly done with the third book in my self-published trilogy. It's a weird place to be.
EDIT: I may as well post a link to the website my wife and my friend helped set up. It has the first five chapters available for free and some other stuff.
https://www.tulpatrilogy.com/
Haven't read Dune, but saw it in the cinema a couple of weeks ago and I enjoyed it except the whole "we're the good feudal-imperialists cos the Harkonnens are evil and we're not the evil ones so please accept on faith that we're therefore good. Also we're gonna make a point of giving a shit about the lives of productive workers for this one scene, but then demand that dangerous production resumes immediately afterwards. I promise we're the good ones tho look at our jawlines, btw did we mention the other ones are evil and inhuman?" (admittedly they do have sexy jawlines, but that's not the point)
For clarity: I'm just irritated that because of the disproportionate emphasis on making atreides sympathetic the majority of people, i.e. non-marxists, watching this film will have taken away that house atreides are the “goodies”, and I just wish that more care was taken to not let that happen
If you don't want spoilers don't read this.
spoiler
In Dune: Messiah, Paul becomes just as grotesque and evil as the Harokonnens, though the knowledge of his own transformation wears on his psyche, further depressing and fragmenting him. Essentially, it emphasizes that there is no such thing as a 'good' empire because empire comes with its own set of rules and contradictions that not even a chosen one can overcome.
Yeah it's awesome that the message gets better as the series progresses, but the initial framing of "here, this one is the good empire" is still pretty cringe (to me, though I haven't read the books so this opinion is purely based on the film)
Well, yeah, Hollywood is still Hollywood, we'll see if they get the message across in this series.
Yeah, I imagine the writers room will be sweating buckets at the mere prospect of using the word jihad so I'm really interested to see how closely they stick to the (from what I've heard and intend to read soon) religious complexity, especially given how propagandised western audiences are toward Islam
I don't want to hate on idiot leftists but i'm already dreading the "oh, so these muslim-coded people are doing a jihad? How problematic" discourse.
I've seen them complain about how none of the main fremen actors were arab but i honestly think it's for the best given what will happen later in the series.
You need to see several steps ahead when engaging in discourse. Just like Leto II, the most powerful poster.
If they're following the books then it mostly depends on how many movies they get. Since this one is basic the first half of a five hour movie and they just didn't make the second half yet, I'm okay with waiting and seeing on it.
That was kind of the point. The message doesn't "get better," the message of the series was always "Oh, but what if you really aren't helping as much as you think you are?"
This is not the case, the Empire is never "good" at any point in the series, at it's best point it could be described as "the least-bad version of the future as interpreted by the subjective analysis of a demi-god." This premise exists to be subverted within the story; but you just have to read all the books and analyze it as one work to reach this point.
Also fuck Brian Herbert.
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Mate very good points, you're absolutely right. I guess I'm just overly excited for the message about all empires being evil, and wanted more of that payoff ahead of its time! As I said in another comment I'm more worried about the book-less watcher's interpretation becoming that house atreides are the good guys since most of them are killed off whilst still highly sympathetic characters. Btw you've convinced me even more that I can't wait to read the books!
Sorry if what I said doesn't make sense btw I just got home and I'm quite drunk :bird-screm1:
I hate this take. stories are better when they're not morality plays. the Atreides are more principled and humane and that's about it. you can decide on your own whether or not they're worthy of being sympathized with. I think neither Herbert's writing nor Villeneuve's adaptation try to influence you into doing so.
Did we watch the same film? House atreides was portrayed pretty much exclusively by sympathetic characters, and the Harkonnens displayed almost exclusively through 'evil' stereotypes and were also framed as such by our sympathetic heroes. I can't remotely see how you watched that film and feel like it doesn't try to influence a sympathetic view of atreides. Maybe you can come away with that perspective after reading the source material, but I'm not convinced you could do so after watching the film cold. I also hate the morality play shit which I thought was evident in my post, and is exactly the reason I found this aspect of the film cringe.
I think it's important to distinguish between the Atreides being "better" than the (admittedly cartoonishly evil) Harkonnen and them being "good". the film very clearly portrays where their interests lie. we're shown how Leto isn't careless with the lives of his subjects (at least when he has the opportunity to intervene directly) and that's well and good, but we're also shown how his willingness to cooperate with the Fremen is entirely self-serving ("cultivating desert power") and how they're willing to run deep psyops to facilitate that. we're also shown how the Fremen view them as just another clan of outworlders come to exploit the land and fuck with their right to self-determination and you and I would probably agree that their assessment is correct.
conversely the Fremen will execute you and turn your body into a dry raisin if they judge you incapable of surviving the desert. they're not exactly "good" either (and without getting into major spoilers, this is putting it lightly). Dune isn't a black and white story.
reasonably speaking, you're likely expected to sympathize with Paul, who is a teenager forced into strenuous circumstances and who has little to no agency for most of the story. that's about it. the rest is what you affixed, and while that's perfectly normal, it's also not canon.
Yeah I agree with all of this. I was responding to the point that the film doesn't try to influence you into sympathising with atreides, but the film spends a disproportionate amount of time showing them performing sympathetic actions and stating their 'better' moralities even if it does also show they have other motives, which is all set against the backdrop of some cartoonishly evil alternative. Like I do get it and agree with what you're saying, but the majority of people i.e. non-marxists watching this film will have taken away that house atreides are the "goodies", and I just wish that more care was taken to not let that happen
it does give the audience plenty of room for confirming their own biases, that's true. I wouldn't put it past Herbert or Villeneuve to believe in such a thing as "good imperialism" either. with that said I feel like the goals of writing a credible story and coaxing readers into adopting a single objectivist interpretation of it are in conflict with each other. that, and "death of the author" as a concept is useful not just in experiencing stories with sufficient detachment as to examine them astutely, but also in allowing yourself to enjoy them.
Oh yeah for sure. I'm just very interested in reception studies, so usually when I'm talking about any type of art it's through that perspective. It's hell
:kitty-cri-screm:
One reason why I think earlier movie adaptions did a better job of it.
House Atreides has a very Liberal Democracy vibe to it, in so far as its got the trappings of modernism and progressivism and rationalism. But they're still doing the same evil shit. Leto Atreides seeks military alliance with the Fremen in the same way that the CIA sought military alliance with the Bin Ladens. The Evil Harkonnens rule with an iron fist while the Benevolent Atreides attempt the same with a silk glove. But they both play the same game, courting the Emperor's favor while obliquely maneuvering to unseat him.
One aspect of the novel that often gets overlooked is the viewpoint of the Planetologist Liet-Kynes, who posits that - absent the constant scouring of the sands for Spice - the planet might become a bountiful ecological paradise. Further, various characters note the rather stagnant state of the Empire, particularly in so far as it remains reliant on Spice long after technological advancement should have rendered it unnecessary.
In Text, the Atreides are the "Good Guys" and the Harkonnens the "Bad Guys" and everyone else is just a bit player. But go to the subtext and you'll get a very different story. This is very much a book about the Cold War and the Gas Crisis of the 70s. That's why it resonated so strongly after it was written. And it requires a second look at the Bene Jessuits and the Spacers Guild and the Emperor himself as prime movers in this Space Opera. The Harkonnens and the Atreides are merely playing their roles within a much grander game. Their relative morality is as much a consequence of deliberately engineered genetic breeding, economic pressure, and political horse-trading as it is of their own personal virtues.
Apply a little materialism to Dune and you'll find it resonates strongly.
I mean we are literally introduced to the Atreides by the line "Who will our next oppressors be?"
Yeah, but Paul also sees a vision of how him becoming their leader can have nasty consequences.
A big part of the book is how little he can control a social movement once it's begun, even as their messiah he is bound by the will of his people.
If they get a third movie out of it then your problems will be resolved. The movie is a pretty small chunk of a really really long story. Not to spoil things, but everyone is an asshole.
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They've all been chiseled from stone