My intention is just to discuss the concepts, I still don't see what I said that was personal.
When you said that show don't tell isn't fundamental, I took that to mean that you don't consider it good advice, except in a modern context, because of how it's been pushed. If you agree that it's generally good advice (in moderation) regardless of time and place, then we're on the same page. Of course the specific phrase is relatively new, but as I showed, the fundamental concept has been around since ancient times.
As an aside, like, the CIA also funded Jackson Pollock and I don't think his paint splatters are anti-communist. They also funded psychics and shit. They were just throwing shit at a wall to see what would stick, imo.
Starting off with a :jesse-wtf: and telling me I went off the rails isn’t exactly an invitation for anything but a defensive response.
I said that I agreed with your OP. I didn't understand what the fuck you were talking about so I used the wtf emoji. I apologize if it came across as a personal insult, as that was not my intent.
“Show don’t tell” isn’t new, but the school of thought that started making it more mandatory as an expectation is. Especially if that’s taught in a sloppy and slapdash way, it leads to a lot of author intent failing to get delivered. That doesn’t mean that a bad classroom is necessary for intent getting lost in the “showing” and “not telling.” For example, Upton Sinclair’s “The Jungle” never actually was intended to be a direct criticism of the meat processing industry but instead a wider-reaching message that culminated in a happy ending with Sinclair himself as governor of California. As the well known quote goes, he aimed for the heart and hit the stomach, and we got the FDA as a result. Still a good thing, at least.
I agree that it's possible for the message to get lost this way, but for the record I'll note that "The Jungle" predates the CIA and "show, don't tell." Language is an imperfect tool of communication, and the intended message can be lost just as easily through telling as through showing. If I write, "John was sad," then I'm basically just hoping that the reader has the same feeling come to mind that I'm thinking of, because sadness can vary greatly in how it feels and in intensity. Furthermore, as words change in meaning over time and across languages, the meaning can easily become lost or changed. If I instead describe how John expressed his sadness, then the reader is much less dependent on shared understanding of specific words. If I write, "John could not be roused from his bed for three days," then you can better understand what I'm trying to convey, and that meaning is more robust across language and culture.
Yes, the CIA funded some slapdash things, but I still disagree about both the intent and success of “show don’t tell” academic reformations. A lot of Marxist theory is very wordy to the point of it being a meme even here (“read theory!”), while by contrast capitalist ideologies and liberalism are very easy to absorb and have been internalized for generations in the United States with very little contest.
It may be that the tell-iness of classic Marxist theory factored in to the promotion of show don't tell. But this doesn't mean that show don't tell is an inherently anti-communist thing, as those works are only one way of expressing the underlying concepts.
Speaking personally, I was raised Catholic. In Catholicism, there is one, exact way to talk about certain things, such as the Trinity. This parody does a good job of satirizing it. The fact that the Trinity cannot really be expressed except by telling proves that it's a weak, hollow concept, really just a series of words to recite. The nature of truth is that it has substance - when something is true, there are many different ways to show that it's true, many different ways of expressing it. Showing is helpful because that sort of hollow dogma cannot be shown. As such, when a concept is shown, it is generally more compelling.
To teach a single dogmatic interpretation and to open things up to the point that all interpretations are equally valid are both extremes which don't require any real understanding of the nuance of the text. The proper balance is one of informed individual opinions. If an interpretation is based on factual inaccuracies, misinterpretations, or bad faith, then that interpretation is not valid.
However, this "proper balance" is not a balance between dogma and modern literary criticism. The balance is between dogma and lazy/apathetic teachers. "All interpretations are equally valid" is a strawman version of The Death of the Author, it is not a serious academic position.
I just think we're on different wavelengths tbh. I didn't understand how I was making it personal and now I don't understand how I'm invalidating your experiences. I'm just arguing that your experiences were the result of bad teacher(s) rather than ideology, I'm not saying that they didn't happen or anything. Honestly I don't really want to continue the conversation.
My intention is just to discuss the concepts, I still don't see what I said that was personal.
When you said that show don't tell isn't fundamental, I took that to mean that you don't consider it good advice, except in a modern context, because of how it's been pushed. If you agree that it's generally good advice (in moderation) regardless of time and place, then we're on the same page. Of course the specific phrase is relatively new, but as I showed, the fundamental concept has been around since ancient times.
As an aside, like, the CIA also funded Jackson Pollock and I don't think his paint splatters are anti-communist. They also funded psychics and shit. They were just throwing shit at a wall to see what would stick, imo.
deleted by creator
I said that I agreed with your OP. I didn't understand what the fuck you were talking about so I used the wtf emoji. I apologize if it came across as a personal insult, as that was not my intent.
I agree that it's possible for the message to get lost this way, but for the record I'll note that "The Jungle" predates the CIA and "show, don't tell." Language is an imperfect tool of communication, and the intended message can be lost just as easily through telling as through showing. If I write, "John was sad," then I'm basically just hoping that the reader has the same feeling come to mind that I'm thinking of, because sadness can vary greatly in how it feels and in intensity. Furthermore, as words change in meaning over time and across languages, the meaning can easily become lost or changed. If I instead describe how John expressed his sadness, then the reader is much less dependent on shared understanding of specific words. If I write, "John could not be roused from his bed for three days," then you can better understand what I'm trying to convey, and that meaning is more robust across language and culture.
It may be that the tell-iness of classic Marxist theory factored in to the promotion of show don't tell. But this doesn't mean that show don't tell is an inherently anti-communist thing, as those works are only one way of expressing the underlying concepts.
Speaking personally, I was raised Catholic. In Catholicism, there is one, exact way to talk about certain things, such as the Trinity. This parody does a good job of satirizing it. The fact that the Trinity cannot really be expressed except by telling proves that it's a weak, hollow concept, really just a series of words to recite. The nature of truth is that it has substance - when something is true, there are many different ways to show that it's true, many different ways of expressing it. Showing is helpful because that sort of hollow dogma cannot be shown. As such, when a concept is shown, it is generally more compelling.
deleted by creator
To teach a single dogmatic interpretation and to open things up to the point that all interpretations are equally valid are both extremes which don't require any real understanding of the nuance of the text. The proper balance is one of informed individual opinions. If an interpretation is based on factual inaccuracies, misinterpretations, or bad faith, then that interpretation is not valid.
However, this "proper balance" is not a balance between dogma and modern literary criticism. The balance is between dogma and lazy/apathetic teachers. "All interpretations are equally valid" is a strawman version of The Death of the Author, it is not a serious academic position.
deleted by creator
deleted by creator
Ok then. You are wrong. Show don't tell is good and you should agree with it
Telling is literally so easy wtf
deleted by creator
So I take it you agree with me now, since I told you what to believe? Or was I unclear?
deleted by creator
I just think we're on different wavelengths tbh. I didn't understand how I was making it personal and now I don't understand how I'm invalidating your experiences. I'm just arguing that your experiences were the result of bad teacher(s) rather than ideology, I'm not saying that they didn't happen or anything. Honestly I don't really want to continue the conversation.