Wasn't it just that Leto I and the Atreides were too popular? Approaching the point where they could conceivably challenge the emperor. I seem to remember Shaddam not being happy about killing the house but felt it necessary
Yeah this is exactly it. House Atreides had the support of vast amounts of the "lesser" nobles in the Landsraad. The Emperor held no ill will against House Atreides, and was even impressed at their soldiers and "honor" or whatever but ordered their downfall because they were within an inch of being able to challenge his position.
Yeah so the emperor had the Sardaukar, his elite military force, as well as a bunch of conventional forces. The Sardaukar as well as most of the Harkonnen forces are the ones who ambush the Atreides in the first part.
So that's the big shock for Paul and Leto, that the Emperor did hire his forces out to the Harkonnen. That's a huge deal, a step they considered beyond the Pale; the Emperor never hires out his Sardaukar, they're his trump card. It shows how concerned the Emperor was about the chances of House Atreides standing against him.
That was part of it too, but (leaving aside Brian entirely), Shaddam was a man whose will was severly restrained by the Great Convention, particularly Landsraad was organisation which main or one of main purpose was even explicitly stated in the book by Thufir Hawat iirc - their greatest fear was that Emperor would use the Sardaukar to kill them off one by one, and it was stated to be the reason why the masquerade with Harkonnen uniforms was done. And it was HUGE risk for the emperor, he wouldn't dare to do that for no reason, and certainly not when he had Fenring as advisor.
So there was much more of it between them. Also Leto himself was pretty keen to pursue this course so he wasn't just a victim, by all probabilities he really was aiming at Shaddam. Possible most obvious course was 4 daughters and 0 sons of Shaddam, popular and politically savvy duke could easily push for marrying his son and heir to Irulan and became the all powerful force behind the throne. Shaddam would certainly fear that scenario, but i bet it was still not all. Well we will never know now, Brian version of the events are not even coherent with Brian version.
Yeah I think a lot of people forget (because it's kinda obscure) that the Emperor's strength and forces are about equal with the combined power of the Landsraad, with the Guild being an ostensibly neutral but very powerful third party. Each of those parties needs the others to survive so for the Emperor to take over military action against a Great House is a huge deal like you said.
In contemporary political terms, it might be like the president sending the Secret Service to murder a Senator or Supreme Court judge.
Exactly! Even a provincial 15 year old noble kid knew that Bene Gesserit occupation was politics, and BG sisters were everywhere not even pretending, but all powers seemingly turned a blind eye to it until God Emperor, and he was clearly training them. Maybe they just have a lot of dirt on everyone, plausible considering their other memories and breeding program involving a lot of nobility.
Oh well, at least in the abovementioned Caladan trilogy Brian did accurately portray them as incompetent and far cry from later ones like Taraza or Odrade.
If it's a secret they're doing a shitty job keeping it since they keep fucking telling people.
Also if he's the only guy in the universe who doesn't know it means every single one of the emperors daughters is betraying him and his dynasty and his spies are shit.
Who do they tell? The reader gets it from Jessica, who tells:
The Reverend Mother, who knows it already;
Paul (I think), who is going through BG training himself, thus is privy to some of their secrets
Maybe (?) Leto (can't really remember), who she loves so much she YOLO'd a multi-generation BG project to make happy, so sharing a BG secret wouldn't be too large of leap from there.
Besides, huge secrets are kept routinely, or at least kept well enough to where no one could prove otherwise. The details of the Harkonnen attack, the Emperor's involvement in it, and Paul and Jessica's survival all come to mind.
He admitted Wanna told him much, though not exactly what. Again backing to Caladan trilogy, one great thing Brian did in that book is to show how many BG de facto rebelled in those times because love and marriage - which is surprisingly consistent with later eras BG completely abandoning the ideas*, holding their sisters way more strictly and developing techniques like imprinting (and ultimately factoring in rise of Honored Matress).
*Iirc only BG that still did it openly later was Teg's mother and it was counted as incredible scandal, but she had reputation of witch among witches and nobody dared to oppose her. For the rest, exile on Buzzell awaited.
Doubt it's that secret, everyone calls them witches, the most politically relevant ability of truthtrance is widely known, and every mentat worth his sapho would immediately notice some things, like the statistically improbable amount of daughters the BG have.
BG clearly have plot shield before Leto II, when he takes the role.
Wasn't it just that Leto I and the Atreides were too popular? Approaching the point where they could conceivably challenge the emperor. I seem to remember Shaddam not being happy about killing the house but felt it necessary
Yeah this is exactly it. House Atreides had the support of vast amounts of the "lesser" nobles in the Landsraad. The Emperor held no ill will against House Atreides, and was even impressed at their soldiers and "honor" or whatever but ordered their downfall because they were within an inch of being able to challenge his position.
Who was the emperor affiliated with? Did he have his own armies?
Yeah so the emperor had the Sardaukar, his elite military force, as well as a bunch of conventional forces. The Sardaukar as well as most of the Harkonnen forces are the ones who ambush the Atreides in the first part.
Oh, I thought the sardaukar were mercenaries, but idk, the emper can hire out his forces as a treat.
So that's the big shock for Paul and Leto, that the Emperor did hire his forces out to the Harkonnen. That's a huge deal, a step they considered beyond the Pale; the Emperor never hires out his Sardaukar, they're his trump card. It shows how concerned the Emperor was about the chances of House Atreides standing against him.
I'm not sure how much this was transmitted in the movie, but now I've spent a while reading wiki entries
That was part of it too, but (leaving aside Brian entirely), Shaddam was a man whose will was severly restrained by the Great Convention, particularly Landsraad was organisation which main or one of main purpose was even explicitly stated in the book by Thufir Hawat iirc - their greatest fear was that Emperor would use the Sardaukar to kill them off one by one, and it was stated to be the reason why the masquerade with Harkonnen uniforms was done. And it was HUGE risk for the emperor, he wouldn't dare to do that for no reason, and certainly not when he had Fenring as advisor.
So there was much more of it between them. Also Leto himself was pretty keen to pursue this course so he wasn't just a victim, by all probabilities he really was aiming at Shaddam. Possible most obvious course was 4 daughters and 0 sons of Shaddam, popular and politically savvy duke could easily push for marrying his son and heir to Irulan and became the all powerful force behind the throne. Shaddam would certainly fear that scenario, but i bet it was still not all. Well we will never know now, Brian version of the events are not even coherent with Brian version.
Yeah I think a lot of people forget (because it's kinda obscure) that the Emperor's strength and forces are about equal with the combined power of the Landsraad, with the Guild being an ostensibly neutral but very powerful third party. Each of those parties needs the others to survive so for the Emperor to take over military action against a Great House is a huge deal like you said.
In contemporary political terms, it might be like the president sending the Secret Service to murder a Senator or Supreme Court judge.
The real gaping plot question is why the emperor allowed the Bene Gesseret to deny him an heir
It's not a plot hole. The Bene Geserit have mind control sex and his wife is Bene Geserit. The pussy is just too good
Exactly! Even a provincial 15 year old noble kid knew that Bene Gesserit occupation was politics, and BG sisters were everywhere not even pretending, but all powers seemingly turned a blind eye to it until God Emperor, and he was clearly training them. Maybe they just have a lot of dirt on everyone, plausible considering their other memories and breeding program involving a lot of nobility.
Oh well, at least in the abovementioned Caladan trilogy Brian did accurately portray them as incompetent and far cry from later ones like Taraza or Odrade.
Isn't the exact, ludicrous amount of control BGs have over their bodies a closely-guarded secret?
If it's a secret they're doing a shitty job keeping it since they keep fucking telling people. Also if he's the only guy in the universe who doesn't know it means every single one of the emperors daughters is betraying him and his dynasty and his spies are shit.
Who do they tell? The reader gets it from Jessica, who tells:
Besides, huge secrets are kept routinely, or at least kept well enough to where no one could prove otherwise. The details of the Harkonnen attack, the Emperor's involvement in it, and Paul and Jessica's survival all come to mind.
Yueh knows.
Hmm, does he? I thought he just knew Jessica was pregnant.
He admitted Wanna told him much, though not exactly what. Again backing to Caladan trilogy, one great thing Brian did in that book is to show how many BG de facto rebelled in those times because love and marriage - which is surprisingly consistent with later eras BG completely abandoning the ideas*, holding their sisters way more strictly and developing techniques like imprinting (and ultimately factoring in rise of Honored Matress).
*Iirc only BG that still did it openly later was Teg's mother and it was counted as incredible scandal, but she had reputation of witch among witches and nobody dared to oppose her. For the rest, exile on Buzzell awaited.
I'm pretty sure Yueh says his Wanna did not "grant" him a child.
Doubt it's that secret, everyone calls them witches, the most politically relevant ability of truthtrance is widely known, and every mentat worth his sapho would immediately notice some things, like the statistically improbable amount of daughters the BG have.
BG clearly have plot shield before Leto II, when he takes the role.