When it comes to rapid domestic development and global ascendance, there is hardly any parallel to what China has achieved over the past decade. In a poll conducted by the Global Times Research Center in 2012, over half of foreign respondents viewed China as a
the people who "look down on the West" have increased to 41.7 percent
You know what, maybe I am being reactionary on this. I have just never seen a good source that shows that people in the PRC can't talk about 1989 Tiananmen square stuff online. I would be open to reading if you have something. I would still say, I dont know how it related to them talking about riots in the US in 2020. Them saying there are never riots isn't way out there if the last big one was over 30 years ago.
Looking it up in the dictionary to try to own someone and still getting it wrong, lol.
I'd be happy to teach you the meaning if you'd have even the slightest bit of humility rather than acting like a baby with some pitiful :reddit-logo:-tier trolling.
You seem to think that you're trolling, but I feel great and cool. It's unfortunate that you behave like a child in our space, particularly to avoid doing basic self-crit.
I hope you can become a comrade in the future, but for now you are just a lib eating up capitalist propaganda and throwing tantrums when corrected.
You're telking yourself more lies to avoid self-crit and hiding behind trolling to avoid the substance I've provided. Your actions disprove your baby rhetoric.
There's a reason everyone told you to go back to :reddit-logo:. You're acting like a lib that can't do self-crit about their reactionary positions. We've all seen and experienced it, this is a life raft from a subreddit lol.
I hope you can someday learn how to engage rather than hide behind pretenses of trolling and deflection.
The criticisms of your behavior that you deflect and the fact that you're spreading Western chauvinism from clearly uncritically-accepted capitalist propaganda. You've clearly never even spoken to a Chinese person nor attempted to investigate this topic, but were happy to wade into this space of comrades that do both and start flinging shit and throwing tantrums when people try to engage with you.
For example, rather than actually engage with my in no way unique accusation that you're being chauvinist, you tried to look the term to in the dictionary to "own me", lol. I offered to explain it to you if you'd stop acting in bad faith, but alas you've doubled down on pretending that you're trolling me. Let me reiterate: I feel great. The only negative emotion I feel about this interaction is pity that you think you're a comrade and are very active here, yet act like this when confronted.
Fighting the capitalists isn't just memes and sarcasm, you have to shut the fuck up about shit you've never learned and go learn it or ask questions when people make themselves resources for you if you want to contribute. Otherwise, you will simply be disruptive and push us in liberal and reactionary directions and it would be better if you were not here. That behavior would be helpful to us if you brought it to some liberal party.
I’ve read all the resources other people have provided (you still haven’t provided anything).
I don't believe you, at least you certainly only demonstrated ignorance and attempts at deflection when responding to others providing you with sources. Maybe you decided to read them later, maybe you skimmed them to see how to confirm your biases. But it's painfully obvious that you've never spoken to a Chinese person and aren't comprehending the condescension towards every Chinese person that you're spreading in ignorance.
I personally prefer to not offer resources to people acting in bad faith. They, like you, are actually in a mode of thinking that's about having a fight and "winning" rather than actually learning anything or building a shared understaffing, which is exemplified by your deflections and attempts at trolling every person who's tried to help you. Like you said, others already tried that and it obviously didn't work. You weren't receptive.
This is a good summary of the behavior: https://hexbear.net/post/206695/comment/2608679. I would further summarize it as flinging shit in ignorance and then demanding everyone disprove you, then acting like a baby when they try to meet your ridiculous expectations.
It’s not chauvinism to state facts like unarmed civilians were shot
You've already proven that you don't know what chauvinism is in this context, so this is an interesting and indirect form of lying. You don't know what I was saying, so you wouldn't be able to tell me whether this counts. You're not going to be able to critically engage with this topic until you stop treating it like a reddit fight.
Civilians were shot, though calling them "unarmed civilians" creates a misleading context, as we generally don't know what activities they were engaged in during the fighting, mostly in side streets. A teenager just walking home with groceries and someone part of a lynch mob can both be unarmed civilians, and both were present.
The only extent to which you've previously engaged on this claim, so far as I can tell, is with some garbage articles that can't even get basic facts right.
My verdict: this actually seems pretty in line with chauvinism, actually.
or China censors sensitive topics like what happened in 1989
Ah, how the goal posts move. Now it's just whether China has censorship regarding topics like this? Fucking lol. That's a far cry from your chauvinist pretense that Chinese people aren't allowed to talk about it, holy shit.
I’d much rather see US hegemony fall and China take the lead. You are just kneejerk reacting, making assumptions about me.
I'm correctly describing your bad faith behavior and recognizing, as others have, that it's some:reddit-logo: brain shit.
So was this your idea of demonstrating good faith or...?
Ah, and you've yet again avoided engaging with what I said to just be dismissive, lol. I quote you and engage at length with explanations and your brain goes, "hey fuck you why are you contradicting me?"
I've actually said what I want very clearly, it's in those comments above that you've ignored and deflected.
Do you see why I am not convinced by a self-defense / attempt to say where we have common ground? You haven't even recognized that you've been deflecting, trying to troll, trying to shift burdens, generally just acting like this is a fight you need to win rather than engage in any self-crit.
I can give you two examples of what it would look like to demonstrate good faith:
Do the actual self-crit of recognizing these shitty behaviors that many folks have pointed out. Self-evident behaviors you've avoided recognizing by doubling down on them. Saying that you're actually a good critical supporter who gets called tankie is saying, "I'm an ally, actually" even though I've already told you why your behavior means you're not a comrade. Something else you deflected, by the way.
Return to the topics from which you deflected and attempt to really engage. I think you made a struggle to do this by asking me what "my" definition of chauvinism was, but it was asked condescendingly so fuck man, what do you expect?
I'm describing the shit you did and things we've all seen among internet libs. If you do anything irl, I hope you don't act like this, and I hope you can do the self-crit needed to avoid this form of liberalism, which is fundamentally grounded in egos.
I talk to libs of all stripes all the time. Had one condescendingly tell me all about how "we have to protect Ukraine" last week, lol. I'm also talking to one right now.
Let me know when you're ready to stop posting your Ls and can actually engage with us.
I've been very patient with you, actually, and have explained at length what is wrong with your behavior. Most people won't do this for you and will just cringe and move on.
Anyways, name-calling: yeah duh. What do you do with ignorant trolls that act like a baby when they get called out?
Condescending: sure why not I mean if I'm telling you what's what and that you're being shitty I'm sure there's some way that counts at condescension, but get a grip. Do I need to remind you how you acted towards several comrades around here?
Yeah you’re a real good talker. I bet you win over lots of allies.
Yes I recruit and radicalize people all the time, actually. Why do you think I'm going zero tolerance on you? Your behavior is what turns people away, I have to fight this egocentric liberalism all the time in orgs.
Yes you say many dumb things to avoid dealing with what I - and others - say to you. Constantly trying to rationalize away the criticisms, deflect, throw them back even when they don't make sense. Like I said before - it's like arguing with a little kid.
You will need to deal with this someday if you're ever going to actually help out irl.
"Fruitlessly" is a great self-own though, thanks for that.
You mean replying to you? If you want to say you're a lost cause to right ahead.
This reminds me of when I used to try to convince young earth creationists of basic contradictions and they'd cover their insecurity with trolling. In the end they'd frequently try to act like even paying attention to them in any way was actually getting owned, lol.
Unhealthy, cowardly, and in any left space, purely counterproductive.
Irl, most people acting like you would've shut the fuck up after a few people called them out. The time to convince such a person would be afterwards in a private conversation where you acknowledge where they're coming from, explain where others are coming from, smile and commiserate, and give some advice.
This is a commie internet forum and you're incredibly defensive to the point of trolling. I have no expectation of convincing your, but maybe someday the cognitive dissonance will be enough that you'll do the self-crit that we need you to do.
The truth comes out. You just want to bully me into stfu.
If I wanted that I'd ignore you lol. You already shut up in the rest of the thread. Everybody gave up on you.
You might want to read what I said again.
I told you where I’m coming from. You kept frothing.
Yes I responded to that and you avoided what I said for what's probably the 30th time now. Deflecting from a topic only to return to it to claim a victory is also not new or interesting behavior from someone going down your path.
You want purity and simplicity instead critical thinking.
I'm not the one shying away from criticism here, lol. And who knows what you're talking about with "purity".
Maybe you’re just not bright enough to see what you’re actually doing.
You're telling yourself little stories again, inventing an absurd fiction with no resemblance to reality. You're also continuing that little baby habit of parroting my accusations regardless of how little sense it makes. I've responded to you at length and specifically to nearly everything you've said while you played at trolling and avoided what I said.
Nope, I enjoy productive good faith disagreements. It's a good way to learn, spread knowledge, and create new forms of solidarity.
I reject your in-no-way-original shenanigans, which aren't exclusively about the chauvinist shit you tried to stir in particular, but revolve around your approach to disagreement among people you'd like to think are your allies. I'm not exactly alone in recognizing this behavior and you've never acknowledged even the accusation once. What you've done instead is prove it true by deflecting or ignoring the accusation itself, lol. Digging hole after rhetorical hole for yourself with no chance to ever find a coherent way out except more and more self-crit.
No, you offered defenses of yourself that, I would guess, you think of as establishing common ground. That doesn't make me feel like you'll react in good faith, believe it or not.
My condition was that you demonstrate good faith first. But I'll still help a little anyways: it's not my definition. We're in a socialist space, a commie space, full of ancoms and Marxists. There is a very long history of how this term is used in those movements and here.
I think US hegemony is by far much worse than China. I think the world would be much better with China taking a lead role, providing better alternatives like better financing(the debt trap stuff is a myth that really applies to the IMF) and the BRI. China has the best chance of spreading socialism around the world and progressing us toward communism.
That doesn't mean we have to turn of the critical part of our brains and act like there are never mistakes. I don't bad mouth China in liberal spaces like Reddit. In fact, they often call me a tankie on Reddit.
Is this your example of demonstrating good faith? Maybe I should be clearer: the impetus that made you deflect and pretend at trolling is the bad faith. The flinging of shit and then expecting everyone to correct you otherwise they are good targets of criticism is the bad faith. Are you going to stop doing that, and why should I believe you? Not being a consistent sinophobe or declaring critical support doesn't really address my concern. I have no faith that when I start explaining, you'll engage rather than dismiss and troll and deflect. You have to establish the trust that you've broken in this space. That is the lesson I think you need to learn the most.
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You know what, maybe I am being reactionary on this. I have just never seen a good source that shows that people in the PRC can't talk about 1989 Tiananmen square stuff online. I would be open to reading if you have something. I would still say, I dont know how it related to them talking about riots in the US in 2020. Them saying there are never riots isn't way out there if the last big one was over 30 years ago.
It is hard to find sources that aren't western-biased, but it seems like Weibo and other platforms do filter out keywords related to the event.
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2019/06/30-years-tiananmen-square-state-chinese-censorship-and-digital-surveillance
All it would take to prove me wrong is to show me Chinese social media talking about the event.
Take your chauvinist shit elsewhere
a person displaying aggressive or exaggerated patriotism.
Sounds like u
Looking it up in the dictionary to try to own someone and still getting it wrong, lol.
I'd be happy to teach you the meaning if you'd have even the slightest bit of humility rather than acting like a baby with some pitiful :reddit-logo:-tier trolling.
You should take you're own advice.
My own advice to do what? I'm not throwing a tantrum whenever people contradict me.
Yes you are.
Oh? What's my tantrum? Laughing at you?
keep raging
You seem to think that you're trolling, but I feel great and cool. It's unfortunate that you behave like a child in our space, particularly to avoid doing basic self-crit.
I hope you can become a comrade in the future, but for now you are just a lib eating up capitalist propaganda and throwing tantrums when corrected.
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You're telking yourself more lies to avoid self-crit and hiding behind trolling to avoid the substance I've provided. Your actions disprove your baby rhetoric.
There's a reason everyone told you to go back to :reddit-logo:. You're acting like a lib that can't do self-crit about their reactionary positions. We've all seen and experienced it, this is a life raft from a subreddit lol.
I hope you can someday learn how to engage rather than hide behind pretenses of trolling and deflection.
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The criticisms of your behavior that you deflect and the fact that you're spreading Western chauvinism from clearly uncritically-accepted capitalist propaganda. You've clearly never even spoken to a Chinese person nor attempted to investigate this topic, but were happy to wade into this space of comrades that do both and start flinging shit and throwing tantrums when people try to engage with you.
For example, rather than actually engage with my in no way unique accusation that you're being chauvinist, you tried to look the term to in the dictionary to "own me", lol. I offered to explain it to you if you'd stop acting in bad faith, but alas you've doubled down on pretending that you're trolling me. Let me reiterate: I feel great. The only negative emotion I feel about this interaction is pity that you think you're a comrade and are very active here, yet act like this when confronted.
Fighting the capitalists isn't just memes and sarcasm, you have to shut the fuck up about shit you've never learned and go learn it or ask questions when people make themselves resources for you if you want to contribute. Otherwise, you will simply be disruptive and push us in liberal and reactionary directions and it would be better if you were not here. That behavior would be helpful to us if you brought it to some liberal party.
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I don't believe you, at least you certainly only demonstrated ignorance and attempts at deflection when responding to others providing you with sources. Maybe you decided to read them later, maybe you skimmed them to see how to confirm your biases. But it's painfully obvious that you've never spoken to a Chinese person and aren't comprehending the condescension towards every Chinese person that you're spreading in ignorance.
I personally prefer to not offer resources to people acting in bad faith. They, like you, are actually in a mode of thinking that's about having a fight and "winning" rather than actually learning anything or building a shared understaffing, which is exemplified by your deflections and attempts at trolling every person who's tried to help you. Like you said, others already tried that and it obviously didn't work. You weren't receptive.
This is a good summary of the behavior: https://hexbear.net/post/206695/comment/2608679. I would further summarize it as flinging shit in ignorance and then demanding everyone disprove you, then acting like a baby when they try to meet your ridiculous expectations.
You've already proven that you don't know what chauvinism is in this context, so this is an interesting and indirect form of lying. You don't know what I was saying, so you wouldn't be able to tell me whether this counts. You're not going to be able to critically engage with this topic until you stop treating it like a reddit fight.
Civilians were shot, though calling them "unarmed civilians" creates a misleading context, as we generally don't know what activities they were engaged in during the fighting, mostly in side streets. A teenager just walking home with groceries and someone part of a lynch mob can both be unarmed civilians, and both were present.
The only extent to which you've previously engaged on this claim, so far as I can tell, is with some garbage articles that can't even get basic facts right.
My verdict: this actually seems pretty in line with chauvinism, actually.
Ah, how the goal posts move. Now it's just whether China has censorship regarding topics like this? Fucking lol. That's a far cry from your chauvinist pretense that Chinese people aren't allowed to talk about it, holy shit.
I'm correctly describing your bad faith behavior and recognizing, as others have, that it's some:reddit-logo: brain shit.
So was this your idea of demonstrating good faith or...?
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Ah, and you've yet again avoided engaging with what I said to just be dismissive, lol. I quote you and engage at length with explanations and your brain goes, "hey fuck you why are you contradicting me?"
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I've actually said what I want very clearly, it's in those comments above that you've ignored and deflected.
Do you see why I am not convinced by a self-defense / attempt to say where we have common ground? You haven't even recognized that you've been deflecting, trying to troll, trying to shift burdens, generally just acting like this is a fight you need to win rather than engage in any self-crit.
I can give you two examples of what it would look like to demonstrate good faith:
Do the actual self-crit of recognizing these shitty behaviors that many folks have pointed out. Self-evident behaviors you've avoided recognizing by doubling down on them. Saying that you're actually a good critical supporter who gets called tankie is saying, "I'm an ally, actually" even though I've already told you why your behavior means you're not a comrade. Something else you deflected, by the way.
Return to the topics from which you deflected and attempt to really engage. I think you made a struggle to do this by asking me what "my" definition of chauvinism was, but it was asked condescendingly so fuck man, what do you expect?
I'm describing the shit you did and things we've all seen among internet libs. If you do anything irl, I hope you don't act like this, and I hope you can do the self-crit needed to avoid this form of liberalism, which is fundamentally grounded in egos.
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I talk to libs of all stripes all the time. Had one condescendingly tell me all about how "we have to protect Ukraine" last week, lol. I'm also talking to one right now.
Let me know when you're ready to stop posting your Ls and can actually engage with us.
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I've been very patient with you, actually, and have explained at length what is wrong with your behavior. Most people won't do this for you and will just cringe and move on.
Anyways, name-calling: yeah duh. What do you do with ignorant trolls that act like a baby when they get called out?
Condescending: sure why not I mean if I'm telling you what's what and that you're being shitty I'm sure there's some way that counts at condescension, but get a grip. Do I need to remind you how you acted towards several comrades around here?
Yes I recruit and radicalize people all the time, actually. Why do you think I'm going zero tolerance on you? Your behavior is what turns people away, I have to fight this egocentric liberalism all the time in orgs.
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Yes you say many dumb things to avoid dealing with what I - and others - say to you. Constantly trying to rationalize away the criticisms, deflect, throw them back even when they don't make sense. Like I said before - it's like arguing with a little kid.
You will need to deal with this someday if you're ever going to actually help out irl.
"Fruitlessly" is a great self-own though, thanks for that.
You don't say anything at all. You haven't once.
Proud of you, kid. Completely detaching from reality to avoid doing self-crit.
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You mean replying to you? If you want to say you're a lost cause to right ahead.
This reminds me of when I used to try to convince young earth creationists of basic contradictions and they'd cover their insecurity with trolling. In the end they'd frequently try to act like even paying attention to them in any way was actually getting owned, lol.
Unhealthy, cowardly, and in any left space, purely counterproductive.
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Irl, most people acting like you would've shut the fuck up after a few people called them out. The time to convince such a person would be afterwards in a private conversation where you acknowledge where they're coming from, explain where others are coming from, smile and commiserate, and give some advice.
This is a commie internet forum and you're incredibly defensive to the point of trolling. I have no expectation of convincing your, but maybe someday the cognitive dissonance will be enough that you'll do the self-crit that we need you to do.
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If I wanted that I'd ignore you lol. You already shut up in the rest of the thread. Everybody gave up on you.
You might want to read what I said again.
Yes I responded to that and you avoided what I said for what's probably the 30th time now. Deflecting from a topic only to return to it to claim a victory is also not new or interesting behavior from someone going down your path.
I'm not the one shying away from criticism here, lol. And who knows what you're talking about with "purity".
Mmhmm
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For you to do self-crit or stop disrupting our spaces with ignorant chauvinist shit.
I have low expectations, but am also very patient.
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You're telling yourself little stories again, inventing an absurd fiction with no resemblance to reality. You're also continuing that little baby habit of parroting my accusations regardless of how little sense it makes. I've responded to you at length and specifically to nearly everything you've said while you played at trolling and avoided what I said.
You are still doing it. Right now.
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Baby noises
Why are you still talking?
I've already answered that question.
If you'd like to end this conversation, you can go right ahead. Just use your words.
?
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Yes, I've had to repeat myself a lot. Like I said, I'm very patient.
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Nope, I enjoy productive good faith disagreements. It's a good way to learn, spread knowledge, and create new forms of solidarity.
I reject your in-no-way-original shenanigans, which aren't exclusively about the chauvinist shit you tried to stir in particular, but revolve around your approach to disagreement among people you'd like to think are your allies. I'm not exactly alone in recognizing this behavior and you've never acknowledged even the accusation once. What you've done instead is prove it true by deflecting or ignoring the accusation itself, lol. Digging hole after rhetorical hole for yourself with no chance to ever find a coherent way out except more and more self-crit.
You're really making things hard on yourself.
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That you're acting in bad faith. That's one of the versions, sure.
Engage with it and ask what people are talking about if you don't understand. Do you think your childish response is and was the only option? lol
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A shrill mix of baby and parrot noises is heard on the side threads of hexbear dot net.
Their message: "I'll never self-crit"
No, you offered defenses of yourself that, I would guess, you think of as establishing common ground. That doesn't make me feel like you'll react in good faith, believe it or not.
Pray tell, what is your definition of chauvinist?
My condition was that you demonstrate good faith first. But I'll still help a little anyways: it's not my definition. We're in a socialist space, a commie space, full of ancoms and Marxists. There is a very long history of how this term is used in those movements and here.
How will you be demonstrating good faith?
I think US hegemony is by far much worse than China. I think the world would be much better with China taking a lead role, providing better alternatives like better financing(the debt trap stuff is a myth that really applies to the IMF) and the BRI. China has the best chance of spreading socialism around the world and progressing us toward communism.
That doesn't mean we have to turn of the critical part of our brains and act like there are never mistakes. I don't bad mouth China in liberal spaces like Reddit. In fact, they often call me a tankie on Reddit.
Is this your example of demonstrating good faith? Maybe I should be clearer: the impetus that made you deflect and pretend at trolling is the bad faith. The flinging of shit and then expecting everyone to correct you otherwise they are good targets of criticism is the bad faith. Are you going to stop doing that, and why should I believe you? Not being a consistent sinophobe or declaring critical support doesn't really address my concern. I have no faith that when I start explaining, you'll engage rather than dismiss and troll and deflect. You have to establish the trust that you've broken in this space. That is the lesson I think you need to learn the most.