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  • KobaCumTribute [she/her]
    ·
    2 years ago

    Wasn't the intent there to describe basically "heavily regulated capitalism with social welfare programs being established as possible, as a placeholder while the institutions required for socialism were built up" (because that's what the early USSR did: their infrastructure, logistics, and central planning systems didn't spring fully formed simply from the success of the revolution, and instead took years to be built up during which something had to be done in the meantime) and it's just worded/translated awkwardly? If anything it sounds like he's saying "we literally do not have the ability to do more than this right now" and trying to couch it in historical materialist theory instead of admitting the limitations of the party and Soviet government at the time.

    • pooh [she/her, love/loves]
      ·
      2 years ago

      If anything it sounds like he’s saying “we literally do not have the ability to do more than this right now”

      This is how I read it, but I don't think it's unique to the USSR. In my view, there has to be some kind of transition and transition plan, and since we live in a capitalist system, that plan would involve capitalism in some way, shape, or form, albeit under the guidance of the state. To me it's just being realistic.

      and trying to couch it in historical materialist theory instead of admitting the limitations of the party and Soviet government at the time.

      Again, I think there's always going to be limitations and hurdles that need to be overcome under almost any conditions, though the conditions the USSR was under at the time were especially harsh, and so I don't think Lenin or the early Soviet leaders should be faulted for embracing what was entirely necessary to move the USSR forward.

      Relevant Marx quote from The German Ideology:

      We shall, of course, not take the trouble to enlighten our wise philosophers by explaining to them that the “liberation” of man is not advanced a single step by reducing philosophy, theology, substance and all the trash to “self-consciousness” and by liberating man from the domination of these phrases, which have never held him in thrall. Nor will we explain to them that it is only possible to achieve real liberation in the real world and by employing real means, that slavery cannot be abolished without the steam-engine and the mule and spinning-jenny, serfdom cannot be abolished without improved agriculture, and that, in general, people cannot be liberated as long as they are unable to obtain food and drink, housing and clothing in adequate quality and quantity. “Liberation” is an historical and not a mental act, and it is brought about by historical conditions, the development of industry, commerce, agriculture, the conditions of intercourse...

      • KobaCumTribute [she/her]
        ·
        edit-2
        2 years ago

        I don’t think it’s unique to the USSR

        It's definitely not unique. China at least did the same thing in the early 50s, regulating a still-capitalist economy while transitioning to communes and state-owned businesses, a process which required massive literacy programs and bringing a lot of former landlords, businessmen, and other upper/middle class professionals into the fold because they were systemically the only literate groups pre-revolution and the need for literate functionaries was so dire that pardoning any who peacefully surrendered their claims to properties and agreed to work with the new system was seen as necessary.

        I don’t think Lenin or the early Soviet leaders should be faulted for embracing what was entirely necessary to move the USSR forward.

        Right. I'm just looking at his words through the lens of them not making much literal sense, but in the context of what they actually, materially did and the conditions they were faced with they make sense as an attempt to explain a pragmatic move (allowing regulated capitalism to persist as a holding pattern until collectivization and state-run industries could be accomplished) with a marxist theory explanation rather than openly admitting weakness or limitations at a time when they were beset on all sides by reactionaries.

        Like the general progression of economies and the conditions for revolution exist more in a general sense than a strict order that a given place must follow. Like a socialist state offering aid to indigenous horticulturalists wouldn't say "oh well first we need you to establish an agricultural slave-based economy administered by a city-state with an oligarchic council, then get yourselves a king, then kill the king and get some businessmen, then kill the businessmen and we'll give you tractors, modern medicine, and a railway," because they have to progress through all the stages, because that's obviously not true. At the time of the Russian Revolution they materially had the precursors they needed to go on to establish the industrial socialist state that they'd become, but they needed time to actually build up and create those institutions: they didn't need regulated capitalism to produce the conditions they needed to build socialism, they needed it as a harm-reducing stop-gap measure to keep people working, fed, and housed while the state and party was building institutions needed for a socialist system.

        I don't even know what such a stop-gap measure would look like in an imperial core country these days. Trying to quickly nationalize as much corporate logistics infrastructure as possible while trying to bring agricultural workers to the table to keep nationalized corporate agricultural holdings productive, while working to fully coopt Amazon supply lines and move smaller private businesses to a coop model under some local umbrella? I don't think there's a more solid answer than "literally whatever concession it takes to keep food growing and supplies moving while people stay busy and provided for, until a better system can be built," which is generally what successful revolutionaries have done in the past.

    • geikei [none/use name]
      ·
      edit-2
      2 years ago

      trying to couch it in historical materialist theory instead of admitting the limitations of the party and Soviet government at the time.

      you yourself pointed out that these were the limitations of the time and the particular level of development, contradictions, material conditions and foreign position the ussr found itself at the time. And Lenin thouroughly talked about these things in any of his writtings in that era and maybe that specific passage seems that way to you cause it specificaly talks about a nep style direction economicaly. Also Tax in kind is an amazing work to read thats often ignored by people. But in general Lenin never pretended the USSR economy was something that it wasnt. He never said to the people "we have achieved socialism and smashes capitalist production" or "we will be able to do so in the near future". He is just describing and accepting a reality and his desciptions of it and of soviet economy in that post revolution era are honest but also changing a lot year by year cause a lot of huge shit and shifts were happening so you cant parse some general underlying tactic or economism from just what he wrote in lets say 1921 regarding something.

      • KobaCumTribute [she/her]
        ·
        edit-2
        2 years ago

        Perhaps my reading of it is colored by how people tend to talk about that quote, either pointing to it to claim the later Soviet model of centrally planned state-owned businesses with a quasi-market system was "state capitalist" because Lenin used that term for the long-since-ended NEP, or to try to argue an idea of a strict progression through systems of economic organization and say that Soviets "had to make capitalism first because you can't just go from feudalism to socialism" which is also missing the point because it paints the capitalist stage itself as contributing a necessary character or the like (and also misrepresents pre-revolution Russia as fully feudal and agrarian, when it was actually an underdeveloped industrial capitalist state, albeit one that was rather far behind the other great powers in many respects), when the actions the early Soviets took were much more pragmatic and grounded in the material realities on the grounds.

        I may also have worded my take on it poorly: what I mean is that I don't believe the early Soviets were just dogmatically following a prescribed order of development (which I've seen people misrepresent the NEP as before), but instead acted pragmatically based on their material limitations, that the regulated capitalism of the NEP wasn't because private enterprise is universally necessary to go from underdeveloped aristocratic capitalism to socialism but because the Soviet state itself had not yet established the sorts of central planning institutions and the logistics chain to support them that they would later rely on.