- cross-posted to:
- europe
- europe@lemmy.ml
- cross-posted to:
- europe
- europe@lemmy.ml
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It's hard not to despise the Baltic states these days. Fucking yapping pieces of snot
Amazing, isn't it? They used to make lasers and race cars in the soviet days, but threw it all away and decry it as horrible oppressive occupation, while buying kitty litter for fuel
The Soviet Union even gave them independence at first. If they really were that oppressive, why would they do that?
Try telling that to even a run of the mill lib, not to mention a baltics nationalist. You'll probably get hit with something like "It was fake independence and ebil russkies invaded anyway and installed a puppet regime!!!!!111"
lith went from first internet prototype to nato operator in the region
Not to my knowledge. I actually mixed up: it was Estonia that made racecars. . Latvia made motorcycles.
I think we've all seen enough videos from Ukraine to know what happens then.
Why would I ever play along with being forced to fight for a country and government that has provided me with no material assets and has been actively trying to repress me and my class my entire life?
Im not kidding when I say day 1 they give me something lethal id be fragging the highest up in the chain of command that I can reach lmao
Im not kidding when I say day 1 they give me something lethal id be fragging the highest up in the chain of command that I can reach lmao
That's actually why so many revolutions came out of conscripted forces. It's terrible, but giving a bunch of people who don't want to fight weapons and training makes it hard for you to control that when they come back home.
Conscripting forces (under capitalist or imperial systems especially) will almost always lead to some form of domestic revolution or civil war either after or during the imperial war the conscripts are fighting in.
Exceptions seem to exist in predominantly settler colonial states or states with massive existing racial/ethnic underclasses. Since the way to quell the revolutionary intents of conscripts is concession at the social underclass' expense.
See the GI bill and redlining in America, Palestinian relations in Israel, North Koreans in South Korea, etc.
So a conscript force in NATO states would likely result in a fascist/socialist dialectic reforming as the old liberal states slide into reaction.
Without conscription, there can't really be a large scale violent revolution, but it's also less likely to literally consume the world in hellfire overnight as the old guard clutches to power in the most violent ways possible.
Also former conscripts made up the majority of revolutionary leftist parties, fascist paramilitaries, and organized criminals. So there isn't really a positive to conscription beyond just heightening contradictions and forcing more people from passive political life into active political life.
Unpopular opinion: conscription is good.
Aight, who let Zelensky in?
Thank you very much for asking nicely. I'm not in the right headspace to type out my thoughts, but I'll remember to reply maybe in a few days.
[Edit] Best I could come up with:
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Abolition of conscription in the West marks the end of any notable anti-war movement. Not a coincidence: people won't fight against the war when their own children won't be drafted. While back when there was a draft, anti-war organizing was strong even WITHIN Western armies. Vietnam war has many examples of soldier disobedience etc. Nothing of the sort happens in "professional" militaries.
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Poverty-to-war pipeline is obviously cruel. The service should be universal and rich kids should serve the same as poor ones.
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Regular people who have normal lives they want to go back to are less likely to commit war crimes than bloodthirsty mercenaries who join because of adventurism, for money, or just because they want to kill people abroad.
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Universal service trains all citizens in armed combat. This is crucial should there be a need to resist the government. Right now, only fascists take armed resistance seriously, while communists are woefully unprepared.
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A communist revolution can only succeed if a part of the nations military joins the revolution, or at the very least refuses to shoot the revolutionaries. This is much less likely with mercenaries. While the army drafted from regular people, there will be family members, friends etc on the other side.
The abolition of conscription in the West coincides with the decline of notable anti-war movements
Something something correlation something something does not imply causation. There are many factors at play. Also - this is just accelerationism.
Universal conscription ensures that military service is not disproportionately borne by socioeconomically disadvantaged individuals
I'm sorry, are you delusional? Have you seen a single big capitalist, their offspring or their politician puppet who went to actual combat? No? There's a reason for that. In the country I come from, politicians and their families are shielded AF - no press gang comes close to their house, while ordinary people get snatched off the streets.
Wealthy individuals are often able to avoid military service through exemptions or alternative paths
You refuted your point here.
Conscripted soldiers are less likely to commit war crimes compared to volunteer soldiers
Proof? Didn't Nazi Germany have conscription? Didn't US army have conscription until the end of the Vietnam War? If you asked the Koreans, they'd disagree on the "war crimes" part - US soldiers bombed the living hell out of Korea in the 50s. Also, you know PTSD is a thing, right? Again, take Ukraine as an example - we now see tons of reports about people just going on the streets and shooting at random people and things. We see demobilized soldiers going on rampages, we see a significant spike in domestic violence, alcoholism, drug abuse, the whole shebang.
Universal conscription reduces the likelihood of individuals joining the military with the explicit intent to engage in combat abroad
Funny you should say that, because it doesn't apparently reduce the likelihood of your country becoming a concentration camp where men are prohibited from leaving and are forced to be literal cannon fodder for the US empire.
Currently, far-right militias actively engage in armed combat training, giving them a tactical advantage in conflicts...
Conscription would give the far-right the same benefits. What's the point? Are they going to selectively conscript all the communists? It's nonsense.
In the event of a communist revolution, a well-trained citizenry would be better prepared to resist government repression and uphold revolutionary ideals.
You do not need conscription for that
A communist revolution depends on military support
I repeat my point - you don't need conscription for that.
As a communist who comes from a literal Nazi-infested fascist country, where people are afraid to go out because the press-gangs can push you into a minivan, take you to a "recruitment" center, proclaim you are eligible even if you only have one hand, you are legally blind or you have Down Syndrome (there's videoproof of that, btw), give you at most 3 weeks of training and then send you to your death, I tell you this - you have zero fucking clue what you are talking about.
It is causation, "my kid isn't in the army so what do I care" vs "my kid is reaching the draft age so I don't want a war". Nothing accelerationist about that
Proof?
Not a proof but I think it's not a coincidence Azov and the like are always voluntary units.
Didn’t US army have conscription until the end of the Vietnam War?
Yes they did: https://www.warhistoryonline.com/vietnam-war/anti-war-resistance-vietnam-war.html
As a matter of fact, this is exactly why US ended conscription. Now find similar stories from Iraq war, I'll wait.
What’s the point? Are they going to selectively conscript all the communists?
No, they will draft everyone so entire society will have combat training. It is better for popular uprisings, that much is irrefutable. Right now only nazis are preparing for armed conflict and you'll never convince regular people to waste time and resources to join militias and train.
You do not need conscription for that
You need conscription for that: https://socialistworker.co.uk/features/how-troops-refused-orders-and-joined-the-russian-revolution/
“my kid is reaching the draft age so I don’t want a war”...
Did it help people in Ukraine?
Not a proof but I think it’s not a coincidence Azov and the like are always voluntary units.
The original Nazis weren't. And they were also not known for their kind treatment of the POWs and the locals in general, you know. Also - your point was that "conscripts are less likely to commit war crimes". Do I need to remind you what the US soldiers did to Korea? To the Vietnamese? Hey, here's a good example - the "Israelis". They are draftees too, remember?
No, they will draft everyone so entire society will have combat training.
Oh, god, the naivete... Yes, they will draft Elon Musk and his children, I am sure of it. Along with Billy Gates and Jeff Bezos. What are you smoking? I'll ask again - how is that going to help? Do you really think conscription makes good soldiers - professional, motivated, experienced? No it doesn't. It makes cannon fodder.
You need conscription for that: https://socialistworker.co.uk/features/how-troops-refused-orders-and-joined-the-russian-revolution/
No you don't. You need the material conditions deteriorating so badly that people will be forced to go against the state. The war helped, but it wasn't the primary factor. The soldiers were extremely unmotivated in the first place.
Again, one word for you: Ukraine.
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