cuba and korea are already democratic, as in the sense of true democracy, workplace democracy. liberal "democracy" is nothing more than a cover for the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie and foreign imperialists. just look at cuba and korea under their respective american and japanese occupations. thats what the liberal west wants to return them to.
Well "true" democracy is a rather open definition lol. With a minimalist definition enough even North Korea is a democracy based on them holding elections but I mean that is obviously not the case.
Liberal democracy is just electoral democracy+ rule of law. You can have liberal democracy without capitalism and the bourgeoisie, just look at the Scandinavian countries before the neoliberalists took hold.
?
The current Nordic model is hardly socialist, just a welfare model. But in the 60's it was on its way to eradicate the bourgeoisie and lift the under class in its entirety?
But in the 60’s it was on its way to eradicate the bourgeoisie and lift the under class in its entirety?
No, it was just a welfare state back then too, they just had more concessions at the time because there was the Soviet Unions just next door with guarantied employment, free healthcare and housing, etc, and were getting so riled up over it that the bourgeoisie was getting really scared of potentially having a revolution and decided that temporarily giving these concessions was better than loosing everything.
Oh you mean like that! Yes that is a good point. Can it be considered democratic if you have a hegemony ruling for lengthy periods of time with no shift in power even though there is free and equal competition by the opposition. I think 2012 was the last time an oppositional party held power.
How can it be equal, if every layer of government is held by one party? (that's ignoring our typical commie gripes that ldp was showered by cia money till the 70s)
but i mean your initial point (the leadership should submit if they care about people) is exact same point made during any siege in all of the history. While premise for that siege (something that makes it palatable for the people) is comparatively pitiful: its not supported by un (overwhelmingly), one party states an dictatorships are routinely supported by usa, cuba is not prosecuting minorities over sexual/racial differences, so what exactly is usa problem you think?
(executive, legislature, judicial, local governments) as a career politician entering japan politics, where would you go based on your comprehension of history?
But they aren't free to trade, because the usa may sanction banks engaged with trading with cuba and any ship visiting cuba can't then anchor in usa on the same trip. This all makes trading with cuba highly hazardous (expensive) enterprise for big economies and companies, forcing them to form split entities for trade with cuba, and lack of choice makes cuban produce cheaper to acquire for foreign traders.
Is the juridical system in Japan dependant of the ruling power? That does indeed sound authoritarian. Controlling the legislative and executive power isn't unequal in itself, if it was achieved by free and fair elections with the possibility of being shifted in the next election.
Indeed. But they can very well still do so if they want. Being sanctioned in return by the US would probably prove disastrous to anyone doing so, but enough went together and did they could challenge the US hegemony. United are we strong!
This shifts the question of responsibility the rest of the world instead.
I think they are elected by ruling party to supreme court for 10 (?) years which in turn selects/confirms lower ones, but i might be wrong tbh. The possibility of being shifted is rather theoretical one, don't you think?
If only workers nations of the world united, huh. The moral responsibility lies solely on usa, the rest are honorary cowards. And its not like cuba doesn't have trade, but they are getting shafted on both prices of their exports and following ability to buy stuff. Thats even ignoring that paragon of democratic islands nearby (dominican republic) isn't that richer, and not sanctioned
No that sounds reasonable. I know that there are plenty of states that have the president/government appoint judges to the high court. It can definitely pose a democratic problem but not necessarily. Do you know if the ruling party can dismiss them or replace them at will?
I do agree that the original idea behind the sanctions are despicable but if another country would impose sanctions based on the current reasoning, it's a sound reason. I wholedhartly agree with the rest of the world being honorary cowards though, it's extremely apparent when viewed in the light of Israel's genocide against the Palestinians.
But herein lies the rub: at the start of the thread you said "okay they deserved this over arrests of protestors". Can you link your comment were you advocated for sanctions against usa over arrests of protestors before this?
Passive "both sides are bad" when one side is already sanctioned (and apparently so bad they don't get enough food) and the other is helping perpetrate genocide, arrests protestors just the same and is not sanctioned is not equal enlightened view. I assume whatever your country is, you can't vote for a representative who will sanction usa trade. So you have active positive acceptance of cuba sanctions and silence on sanctions on israel/usa whatever. usa is perfectly happy with your position, its exactly theirs
Yes they can easily have the sanctions lifted by betraying the people of Cuba and allowing Global North neocolonizers to resume their pillaging of the nation.
However what is important to remember is that the sanctions are imposed based on the regimes actions against it's population
I don't know every single sanction against the DPRK, but over the last 40 years the sanctions have all been in connection to nuclear development and things like that. Also, it's rich that you talk about communists being hypocrites while you take western powers at their word for why they are imposing sanctions that starve people by your own admission. The US has done and is doing much crueler things to the people of these states than the states themselves have ever done in any but the most unhinged fantasies.
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cuba and korea are already democratic, as in the sense of true democracy, workplace democracy. liberal "democracy" is nothing more than a cover for the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie and foreign imperialists. just look at cuba and korea under their respective american and japanese occupations. thats what the liberal west wants to return them to.
Well "true" democracy is a rather open definition lol. With a minimalist definition enough even North Korea is a democracy based on them holding elections but I mean that is obviously not the case. Liberal democracy is just electoral democracy+ rule of law. You can have liberal democracy without capitalism and the bourgeoisie, just look at the Scandinavian countries before the neoliberalists took hold.
you unironically did the "socialism is when the nordic model" meme, lmaooo
sorry, i tried taking you seriously, but this is just too much
? The current Nordic model is hardly socialist, just a welfare model. But in the 60's it was on its way to eradicate the bourgeoisie and lift the under class in its entirety?
Didn't know it was a meme lol, what is it about?
no it wasnt. you should learn what words mean before talking about them.
Sure it was. It diverted after the 70's though. Any word in particular you think I don't get the meaning of?
No, it was just a welfare state back then too, they just had more concessions at the time because there was the Soviet Unions just next door with guarantied employment, free healthcare and housing, etc, and were getting so riled up over it that the bourgeoisie was getting really scared of potentially having a revolution and decided that temporarily giving these concessions was better than loosing everything.
This was true of, what? Denmark? But not the Nordic countries writ large.
Sorry but Scandinavian countries were still capitalist and still had a bourgeois class even before the neoliberals came around.
like how usa sanctions saudia arabia or uae or qatar or azerbaijan or japan over not moving towards democracy?
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Cause japan is one party state?
Submit or else, good to see gunboat diplomacy is a thing of the past
Oh you mean like that! Yes that is a good point. Can it be considered democratic if you have a hegemony ruling for lengthy periods of time with no shift in power even though there is free and equal competition by the opposition. I think 2012 was the last time an oppositional party held power.
How can it be equal, if every layer of government is held by one party? (that's ignoring our typical commie gripes that ldp was showered by cia money till the 70s)
but i mean your initial point (the leadership should submit if they care about people) is exact same point made during any siege in all of the history. While premise for that siege (something that makes it palatable for the people) is comparatively pitiful: its not supported by un (overwhelmingly), one party states an dictatorships are routinely supported by usa, cuba is not prosecuting minorities over sexual/racial differences, so what exactly is usa problem you think?
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(executive, legislature, judicial, local governments) as a career politician entering japan politics, where would you go based on your comprehension of history?
But they aren't free to trade, because the usa may sanction banks engaged with trading with cuba and any ship visiting cuba can't then anchor in usa on the same trip. This all makes trading with cuba highly hazardous (expensive) enterprise for big economies and companies, forcing them to form split entities for trade with cuba, and lack of choice makes cuban produce cheaper to acquire for foreign traders.
Is the juridical system in Japan dependant of the ruling power? That does indeed sound authoritarian. Controlling the legislative and executive power isn't unequal in itself, if it was achieved by free and fair elections with the possibility of being shifted in the next election.
Indeed. But they can very well still do so if they want. Being sanctioned in return by the US would probably prove disastrous to anyone doing so, but enough went together and did they could challenge the US hegemony. United are we strong! This shifts the question of responsibility the rest of the world instead.
I think they are elected by ruling party to supreme court for 10 (?) years which in turn selects/confirms lower ones, but i might be wrong tbh. The possibility of being shifted is rather theoretical one, don't you think?
If only
workersnations of the world united, huh. The moral responsibility lies solely on usa, the rest are honorary cowards. And its not like cuba doesn't have trade, but they are getting shafted on both prices of their exports and following ability to buy stuff. Thats even ignoring that paragon of democratic islands nearby (dominican republic) isn't that richer, and not sanctionedNo that sounds reasonable. I know that there are plenty of states that have the president/government appoint judges to the high court. It can definitely pose a democratic problem but not necessarily. Do you know if the ruling party can dismiss them or replace them at will?
I do agree that the original idea behind the sanctions are despicable but if another country would impose sanctions based on the current reasoning, it's a sound reason. I wholedhartly agree with the rest of the world being honorary cowards though, it's extremely apparent when viewed in the light of Israel's genocide against the Palestinians.
Should usa be sanctioned for jailing jan 6 movement?
countries all over the world arrest "peaceful protestors" but in cuba its undemocratic, in civilized white world its law and order
Jan 6 movement is the coup attempt right?
That is a view I disagre with. Arresting peaceful protestors is always undemocratic.
But herein lies the rub: at the start of the thread you said "okay they deserved this over arrests of protestors". Can you link your comment were you advocated for sanctions against usa over arrests of protestors before this?
Passive "both sides are bad" when one side is already sanctioned (and apparently so bad they don't get enough food) and the other is helping perpetrate genocide, arrests protestors just the same and is not sanctioned is not equal enlightened view. I assume whatever your country is, you can't vote for a representative who will sanction usa trade. So you have active positive acceptance of cuba sanctions and silence on sanctions on israel/usa whatever. usa is perfectly happy with your position, its exactly theirs
Yes they can easily have the sanctions lifted by betraying the people of Cuba and allowing Global North neocolonizers to resume their pillaging of the nation.
What a dumbass turbolib.
I don't know every single sanction against the DPRK, but over the last 40 years the sanctions have all been in connection to nuclear development and things like that. Also, it's rich that you talk about communists being hypocrites while you take western powers at their word for why they are imposing sanctions that starve people by your own admission. The US has done and is doing much crueler things to the people of these states than the states themselves have ever done in any but the most unhinged fantasies.