Last time I got linked to the vegan/Marxist theory the first recommended essay led with something to the effect of anarchists care about animals and Marxists typically hate them....so I stopped reading it.
Citations needed for it being anything else. And if you want to limit it to "human" then why not limit it to a specific class or race of human? Exploitation is exploitation. Suffering is suffering. If you aren't interested in the abolition of all of it, then I would contend you are not. a. leftist.
Doesn't matter though, who gives a shit about matters of "vastly greater" (as defined by who?) degree. Exploitation is exploitation and suffering is suffering. Period. Fucking nerd.
The uhh, taxonomic system? The fact that humans can produce offspring with each other but not other animals? The fact that humans are capable of intelligent communication and all but maybe the very smartest non-human animals (e.g. dolphins) aren't?
Do you really want to say the difference between races is the same as the difference between humans and other animals? Because yikes.
Oh, so it's a matter of taxonomy, then? Not the capacity for suffering? Hmmm.. seems to me there were some eugenicists that made similar arguments. Go figure.
Who says a distinction needs to be made? I guess since there is some difference between dogs and humans, that makes it ok to beat dogs to death they might taste good? Exceptional materialism there, comrade.
ok, then replaced dog with pig. Or Aardvark. The logic is unchanged. Jesus, I would have hoped that people who considered themselves "communists" would be better able to think this through.
I am fortunate that I get to spend a lot of time around wild animals, and I feel that they're regard for the world around them, each other, their offspring, suffering, and anything else you can think of is not human. They shouldn't be anthropomorphized. Your ability to relate to them (and vice versa) is very limited.
This isn't a criticism of being compassionate towards animals, but something to keep in mind. I wouldn't feel confident in your ability to read them on an emotional level.
I spend an enormous amount of time around wildlife, it's part of my fucking job actually. And it requires no anthropomorphization and it does not mean that their suffering is identical to human suffering (no shit, you don't need to be an animal expert to recognize this obvious reality). Their experience, their suffering is real. And just as a colonial power could never understand the experience and suffering of a colonized populous, the fact that you write it off as "different therefore invalid" means you are not. a. leftist. That's really what your whole argument boils down to, their suffering is different than human suffering, therefore it doesn't need to be considered or valued.
lol. It has nothing to do with how I "read them on an emotional level." I don't need to to regard them as worthy of NOT TORTURING THEM TO DEATH BECAUSE THEY TASTE GOOD.
Fine. I've got to go to bed. I can reliably relate to other people, which I suppose is at least part of the reason I don't eat them. I don't actually eat animals very often either. I don't know or care if there's some universal truth to eating animals being unjust. This is mostly distraction from my original assertion that veganism is fine, but it's not communism.
Yeah, I guess you're right, the ability to experience suffering doesn't count as something that might bind things together into any kind of category. If it ain't human, fuck it! Right?
What's our question? About distinctions existing? Yeah, they do. And guess qhat, distinctions between human lineages exist too! Oh no.
As far as capacity to suffer? No. No difference. As far as capacity to do human-level shit like uh, read? Yes, difference. The question isn't whether or not goats can read though, it's whether or not they, and other animals can experience a life, can suffer, can feel joy, etc. And guess what, they can do all those things. And if your empathy ends at those who can read, then... fuck you, you're not a comrade.
Right, that's exactly what is meant by "exploitation" in Marxist theory. So smrt. Even if that were the case, our inability to separate out the use of things like wind and land from SENTIENT FUCKING BEINGS that feel pain and are capable of suffering is just testament to our inability to empathize with anything than isn't "like" you. That's a very typical liberal problem that you suffer from and you'd do well to do some self crit on it if you think of yourself as anything beond a larping leftist. Really, this is kindergarten-level discourse.
It's to create a classless stateless society. this is a liberal definition that doesn't mean anything. Marxism/Communism cannot simply encompass all ails. It's a very specific analysis. And Understanding that it's a purely economic analysis is important to understanding why many previous socialist states were bad on things like animal liberation, foreign policy, etc without resulting to a (once again, liberal) conclusion of "Guess they didn't want to end exploitation and suffering enough."
And, less so the links to theory and such, but more so glib insults and 15 comment-long insult exchanges, defending those under the idea of "we're pro animal liberation per site policy" is insinuating any of this furthers the cause of animal liberation in any way. The idea that "posting is praxis" used to be derided endlessly on this site. There are also site rules against hostility.
I really don't have a problem with circlejerk posting when its framed as what it is, but VCJ crew seems to have developed a specific brainworm that Anything Happening On This Site Matters.
The goal of communism is to end exploitation and suffering. If you just like hurting animals, that's your own problem
Citation needed
Here you go! https://mronline.org/2018/08/28/18-theses-on-marxism-and-animal-liberation
Then you can read the rest of !vegan's Vegan Marxist Masterpost (link)
I'm so glad you asked for sources
Last time I got linked to the vegan/Marxist theory the first recommended essay led with something to the effect of anarchists care about animals and Marxists typically hate them....so I stopped reading it.
All I can say is this was compiled by someone who's an ML, so these resources wouldn't be like that
I'm talking about the vegan masterpost you linked.
Ahh so you haven't read it at all then :stalin-approval:
I started to, but it wasn't very good. I told you what I saw.
Citations needed for it being anything else. And if you want to limit it to "human" then why not limit it to a specific class or race of human? Exploitation is exploitation. Suffering is suffering. If you aren't interested in the abolition of all of it, then I would contend you are not. a. leftist.
Because the difference between humans and other animals is vastly greater than the difference between culturally made up classes and races of people?
Now who needs their citations? :blob-no-thoughts:
Doesn't matter though, who gives a shit about matters of "vastly greater" (as defined by who?) degree. Exploitation is exploitation and suffering is suffering. Period. Fucking nerd.
The uhh, taxonomic system? The fact that humans can produce offspring with each other but not other animals? The fact that humans are capable of intelligent communication and all but maybe the very smartest non-human animals (e.g. dolphins) aren't?
Do you really want to say the difference between races is the same as the difference between humans and other animals? Because yikes.
Oh, so it's a matter of taxonomy, then? Not the capacity for suffering? Hmmm.. seems to me there were some eugenicists that made similar arguments. Go figure.
Who says a distinction needs to be made? I guess since there is some difference between dogs and humans, that makes it ok to beat dogs to death they might taste good? Exceptional materialism there, comrade.
The fact that distinctions exist for literally anything?
Also, humans and dogs co-evolved to be partners and companions.
ok, then replaced dog with pig. Or Aardvark. The logic is unchanged. Jesus, I would have hoped that people who considered themselves "communists" would be better able to think this through.
I am fortunate that I get to spend a lot of time around wild animals, and I feel that they're regard for the world around them, each other, their offspring, suffering, and anything else you can think of is not human. They shouldn't be anthropomorphized. Your ability to relate to them (and vice versa) is very limited.
This isn't a criticism of being compassionate towards animals, but something to keep in mind. I wouldn't feel confident in your ability to read them on an emotional level.
I spend an enormous amount of time around wildlife, it's part of my fucking job actually. And it requires no anthropomorphization and it does not mean that their suffering is identical to human suffering (no shit, you don't need to be an animal expert to recognize this obvious reality). Their experience, their suffering is real. And just as a colonial power could never understand the experience and suffering of a colonized populous, the fact that you write it off as "different therefore invalid" means you are not. a. leftist. That's really what your whole argument boils down to, their suffering is different than human suffering, therefore it doesn't need to be considered or valued.
lol. It has nothing to do with how I "read them on an emotional level." I don't need to to regard them as worthy of NOT TORTURING THEM TO DEATH BECAUSE THEY TASTE GOOD.
Fine. I've got to go to bed. I can reliably relate to other people, which I suppose is at least part of the reason I don't eat them. I don't actually eat animals very often either. I don't know or care if there's some universal truth to eating animals being unjust. This is mostly distraction from my original assertion that veganism is fine, but it's not communism.
alright, goodnight.
That seems like a pretty fucked up, lib thing to say but go off I guess.
If it's not, it should be. And more and more, the two are becoming interwoven, as well they should, as well they need to be.
"Umm actually when you replace this one thing with this completely different thing your argument fails. There's actually zero difference..."
But you still haven't answered my question, you tried to dodge it.
Yeah, I guess you're right, the ability to experience suffering doesn't count as something that might bind things together into any kind of category. If it ain't human, fuck it! Right?
What's our question? About distinctions existing? Yeah, they do. And guess qhat, distinctions between human lineages exist too! Oh no.
No, the question was this:
And you're even doing it again.
As far as capacity to suffer? No. No difference. As far as capacity to do human-level shit like uh, read? Yes, difference. The question isn't whether or not goats can read though, it's whether or not they, and other animals can experience a life, can suffer, can feel joy, etc. And guess what, they can do all those things. And if your empathy ends at those who can read, then... fuck you, you're not a comrade.
Have fun building that leftist movement centered around the most unpopular cause you can think of.
Yeah, because what's popular has always been the driving force of communist movements. It's never had anything to do with what's right and just.
this is a :PIGPOOPBALLS: certified take
Said better than I could have. Thanks, comrade.
I would like to exploit some wind energy, some trees, some labor from myself and others, and on and on. I am an exploiter.
Right, that's exactly what is meant by "exploitation" in Marxist theory. So smrt. Even if that were the case, our inability to separate out the use of things like wind and land from SENTIENT FUCKING BEINGS that feel pain and are capable of suffering is just testament to our inability to empathize with anything than isn't "like" you. That's a very typical liberal problem that you suffer from and you'd do well to do some self crit on it if you think of yourself as anything beond a larping leftist. Really, this is kindergarten-level discourse.
I want to exploit humans too. I hope I'm not doing everything by myself.
In a communist society I would hope we would be exploiting all kinds of things, or else I don't see the point.
It's to create a classless stateless society. this is a liberal definition that doesn't mean anything. Marxism/Communism cannot simply encompass all ails. It's a very specific analysis. And Understanding that it's a purely economic analysis is important to understanding why many previous socialist states were bad on things like animal liberation, foreign policy, etc without resulting to a (once again, liberal) conclusion of "Guess they didn't want to end exploitation and suffering enough."
And, less so the links to theory and such, but more so glib insults and 15 comment-long insult exchanges, defending those under the idea of "we're pro animal liberation per site policy" is insinuating any of this furthers the cause of animal liberation in any way. The idea that "posting is praxis" used to be derided endlessly on this site. There are also site rules against hostility.
I really don't have a problem with circlejerk posting when its framed as what it is, but VCJ crew seems to have developed a specific brainworm that Anything Happening On This Site Matters.