3BP builds up a hypothetical rational around the idea that every species in the universe is psychotic because they arbitrarily assume everyone else is psychotic, so as a result they become psychotic, and then the universe breaks because psychotic civilizations apparently develop to the point of creating reality warping tech.....boring Nietzsche shit
W40K on the otherhand tells you there's this wacky scary dimension of psycho-reactive energy that makes you more horny, angry, ambitious, gives you covid and that's why there's a big old war...fun creative in-universe explanation for why everyone's psychotic and it didn't require some illogical Chinese version of evo-psych
The dark forest hypothesis is a few decades old I think, and I'd say it's more pessimistic than arbitrary. It's basically the Bush Doctrine, but played out over astronomical timescales where a tiny chance really does become mathematical certainty. Who knows if the universe actually works like that, but it's at least a plausible setting.
It's arbitrary because it assumes most hyper-violent species with that mindset wouldn't immediately wipe themselves out the minute they split the atom, or that's there is no such thing as factionalism, internal strife, or civil war when these world destroying weapons would be available
Or the idea that species competing for resources are willing to destroy entire habitable planets on a whim, the book is annoying because it pretends to think deeply about these hypotheticals, but it really doesn't and instead the text is soaked with a kind of anti-logic that makes the characters act like robots processing binary code programmed by someone who plays too many paradox games
40K for all its goofiness at least attempts to give plausible explanations for why the galaxy would be a warzone, doesn't always work but when it does it's compelling and creepy
Really though, why didn't the trisolarians settle down on the nearest unitary star system and live under space dome habitats at the first opportunity? Any place would be heaven compared to the ecology of their homeworld that oscillates between scorched earth and frozen wasteland (and is projected to eventually plunge into the nearest sun once the stars align).
Fair question, but there are some plausible answers:
IIRC, the trisolaran fleet is launched sometime around 2022 (a little before the book is set, and the book starts maybe a decade in the future). It's depicted as a dangerous voyage where they lose a significant number of ships. Maybe they didn't have the capacity to launch until about when they did.
There are unexpected hazards of interstellar travel, and of other planetary systems. Maybe they wanted to be reasonably sure they weren't jumping from one dangerous situation to an equally dangerous situation.
The trisolarans knew about the dark forest nature of the universe before we did. It's far better to go to a place you know you can conquer than to go somewhere that might be inhabited by a more advanced civilization.
A recurring theme is investing in multiple avenues of technological progress and balancing proven concepts with the possibility to make a big breakthrough. Maybe they thought they were on the verge of a big breakthrough and were keeping their existing fleet on standby.
Or maybe they had some reason that's completely alien to us.
The trisolarans knew about the dark forest nature of the universe before we did.
I thought that the main character's MAD gambit only worked because both civilizations were ignorant of the dark forest nature of the universe, something MC only gained insight into by becoming the saddest "horny for my wife guy" in the universe.
I think they only reason they had him on their kill list -- and the only reason he was chosen as a wall facer -- was because they had listened in on a conversation where he had been given the basics of the idea. I interpreted that as they knew, then he figured it out and demonstrated a way to weaponize it.
The opposite. It works because they both know it’s true. The nuclear option is sending out a signal to the universe which would give away the location of both planets.
Right. But he sent out a message with a set of coordinates and said "watch this space." If the trisolarians already knew then this is sloppy exposition, action taken just for the readers at home.
It seems possible that a species could master its internal strife well enough not to destroy itself, but still turn its weapons against outsiders. The U.S. hasn't nuked its own population, but it has nuked Japan.
40K for all its goofiness at least attempts to give plausible explanations for why the galaxy would be a warzone
I don't know, I don't think space magic is more plausible than theories serious astronomers have kicked around since the 80s.
Yeah but it stopped at two cities, and turning weapons against outsiders requires a reason, and the reasons given in the book are just dumb, the shit being described in 3BP would make the Imperium of Man blush, it tries so hard to be grim dark to goes full grim dumb
I don’t think space magic is more plausible
It's not "space magic" it's interdimensional energggggy and Advanced genetic enigeeeering...it's goofy and fun and there's space elves, commie goblins and a sex god/goddess with a cool ass color scheme shut up :soviet-huff:
3BP builds up a hypothetical rational around the idea that every species in the universe is psychotic because they arbitrarily assume everyone else is psychotic
They presume that in a world of finite resources, nation-states that see themselves as distinct from one another will fight to monopolize those resources. And as weapons systems become more advanced, the collateral damage in these conflicts will become proportionally catastrophic. This is an intentional parallel with the modern day threat of nuclear war, the specter of which continues to haunt the world to this day.
the universe breaks because psychotic civilizations apparently develop to the point of creating reality warping tech…boring Nietzsche shit
The universe breaks because a finite resource - the Time-Space necessary to fuel superluminal travel - is exhausted through FTL travel. And everyone ultimately wants/needs to use this technology in order to survive and thrive.
W40K on the otherhand tells you there’s this wacky scary dimension of psycho-reactive energy that makes you more horny, angry, ambitious, gives you covid and that’s why there’s a big old war…
They both have super luminal travel. And in both cases, use of super luminal travel is a major driver of conflict.
In the same way, Forest Gump and LotR are two movies about a person who takes a long walk and changes history.
Everything The Three Body Problem tried to do Warhammer 40K did it first and better
3BP builds up a hypothetical rational basis for proposed answers to a bunch of unsolved ontological and sociological questions.
W40k tells you that space fungus can make bicycles go faster by painting them red.
These are not the same.
3BP builds up a hypothetical rational around the idea that every species in the universe is psychotic because they arbitrarily assume everyone else is psychotic, so as a result they become psychotic, and then the universe breaks because psychotic civilizations apparently develop to the point of creating reality warping tech.....boring Nietzsche shit
W40K on the otherhand tells you there's this wacky scary dimension of psycho-reactive energy that makes you more horny, angry, ambitious, gives you covid and that's why there's a big old war...fun creative in-universe explanation for why everyone's psychotic and it didn't require some illogical Chinese version of evo-psych
The dark forest hypothesis is a few decades old I think, and I'd say it's more pessimistic than arbitrary. It's basically the Bush Doctrine, but played out over astronomical timescales where a tiny chance really does become mathematical certainty. Who knows if the universe actually works like that, but it's at least a plausible setting.
It's arbitrary because it assumes most hyper-violent species with that mindset wouldn't immediately wipe themselves out the minute they split the atom, or that's there is no such thing as factionalism, internal strife, or civil war when these world destroying weapons would be available
Or the idea that species competing for resources are willing to destroy entire habitable planets on a whim, the book is annoying because it pretends to think deeply about these hypotheticals, but it really doesn't and instead the text is soaked with a kind of anti-logic that makes the characters act like robots processing binary code programmed by someone who plays too many paradox games
40K for all its goofiness at least attempts to give plausible explanations for why the galaxy would be a warzone, doesn't always work but when it does it's compelling and creepy
Really though, why didn't the trisolarians settle down on the nearest unitary star system and live under space dome habitats at the first opportunity? Any place would be heaven compared to the ecology of their homeworld that oscillates between scorched earth and frozen wasteland (and is projected to eventually plunge into the nearest sun once the stars align).
Earth just can't catch a break :data-laughing:
Fair question, but there are some plausible answers:
Or maybe they had some reason that's completely alien to us.
I thought that the main character's MAD gambit only worked because both civilizations were ignorant of the dark forest nature of the universe, something MC only gained insight into by becoming the saddest "horny for my wife guy" in the universe.
I think they only reason they had him on their kill list -- and the only reason he was chosen as a wall facer -- was because they had listened in on a conversation where he had been given the basics of the idea. I interpreted that as they knew, then he figured it out and demonstrated a way to weaponize it.
The opposite. It works because they both know it’s true. The nuclear option is sending out a signal to the universe which would give away the location of both planets.
Right. But he sent out a message with a set of coordinates and said "watch this space." If the trisolarians already knew then this is sloppy exposition, action taken just for the readers at home.
It seems possible that a species could master its internal strife well enough not to destroy itself, but still turn its weapons against outsiders. The U.S. hasn't nuked its own population, but it has nuked Japan.
I don't know, I don't think space magic is more plausible than theories serious astronomers have kicked around since the 80s.
Yeah but it stopped at two cities, and turning weapons against outsiders requires a reason, and the reasons given in the book are just dumb, the shit being described in 3BP would make the Imperium of Man blush, it tries so hard to be grim dark to goes full grim dumb
It's not "space magic" it's interdimensional energggggy and Advanced genetic enigeeeering...it's goofy and fun and there's space elves, commie goblins and a sex god/goddess with a cool ass color scheme shut up :soviet-huff:
Haha I love 40K too, comrade.
They presume that in a world of finite resources, nation-states that see themselves as distinct from one another will fight to monopolize those resources. And as weapons systems become more advanced, the collateral damage in these conflicts will become proportionally catastrophic. This is an intentional parallel with the modern day threat of nuclear war, the specter of which continues to haunt the world to this day.
The universe breaks because a finite resource - the Time-Space necessary to fuel superluminal travel - is exhausted through FTL travel. And everyone ultimately wants/needs to use this technology in order to survive and thrive.
They both have super luminal travel. And in both cases, use of super luminal travel is a major driver of conflict.
In the same way, Forest Gump and LotR are two movies about a person who takes a long walk and changes history.