Ten Chinese air force aircraft entered Taiwan's air defence zone on Wednesday accompanying five Chinese warships engaged in "combat readiness" patrols, the island's defence ministry said, the second such incursion this week.
I mean, it was made solely for your benefit (though I did like reading it). For your convenience, here it is again.
They are mocking you because they have assessed you as not interested in really engaging with people. If you were more unassuming, the response would be different. It sucks to be dogpiled-on, it has happened to me -- with this very group no less -- but it's good to try to have some perspective of the limits of the implications of such behavior.
Also hexbear is just a little excited to have liberals to use as punching bags via federation, so there's definitely a bit of a hair trigger. I generally prefer to stick to my own ways of talking with people for various reasons, but I struggle to find serious fault with them when I am essentially doing the same thing in my own way with others, and OP seriously brought this upon themselves by posting such a stupid, misleading, and alarmist article (see the comments about the Taiwan ADIZ from myself and others).
Edit: also I checked back and yeah, you were picking a fight. Liberal complains about "brigading," socialist A criticizes them, socialist B riffs on socialist A's comment, then you come and reply to socialist B with "You seem upset," which I would struggle to read as anything other than condescending and terse. I misread
It's not like you said "Hey, what about the Taiwan Strait part?" and got people screaming "HOG OUT OR LOG OUT!"
I don't think I've expressed any liberal sentiments here at all.
I legitimately don't care either way tbh. All this does is once again reinforce the idea that leftist spaces on the Internet are hostile to anything besides a very narrow set of ideas which makes up a very small and myopic subset of leftist thought. I am not here to cure anyone's ignorance. I am engaging earnestly with you because you are actually making an effort to converse instead of just posting literal pig shit.
Whoops, I misread the reply chain pretty severely, you can ignore the edit. You were picking a fight, but not along the lines I wrote there.
I don't they've expressed any liberal sentiments here at all.
Neoliberal is a subset of liberal (in the traditional philosophical sense, not American vernacular), and there is a very clear divide in the thread between neoliberal and socialist.
I legitimately don't care either way tbh.
With due respect, you're just a little Not Mad, but let's not belabor the point. I've been Not Mad too, it's not a sin.
All this does is once again reinforce the idea that leftist spaces on the Internet are hostile to anything besides a very narrow set of ideas which makes up a very small and myopic subset of leftist thought
There are a bunch of things wrong with this, starting with that the article was misleading dogshit and deserves to be mocked. Beyond that, the cultural clique of Hexbear can be myopic, but I think that it does not compare negatively to modern neoliberals in this respect. It is much more interested in international perspectives rather than the perspective of the "international community" (i.e. the EU + the Anglosphere + the most convenient elements of Taiwan, Japan, and SK). They quite frequently read neoliberal writing and listen to neoliberal speeches and so on, while neoliberals are usually content to hear about anything to do with their opposition exclusively through second- and third-hand reporting by their own media.
Which leads me into my next point, that "tankies" etc. are readily called fringe by liberals on the internet, but internationally represent a very common set of opinions (or a strong overlap therewith). It is itself myopia to dismiss the opinions of Chinese and many other people in the imperial periphery and consider only the opinions of the imperial core when evaluating what people think and what "leftist thought" consists of. You could not serious believe, for example, that the Collected Writings of Chairman Mao are important to only a "small subset of leftist thought," right? Sure, you are unlikely to know anyone -- or even to have ever met anyone in your real life -- who regards such a thing positively, but your personal experiences are not the world.
As an aside, the "bot" rhetoric that the liberals so often display is not really helping your case about the tankies being especially closed-minded.
I am not here to cure anyone's ignorance.
Do you see how most people would not be interested in talking with someone who says things like this? That level of condescension rarely produces anything other than scorn.
"You are being condescending to me too!"
Sure, I don't think that's an unreasonable view (though not my intention), but I am nonetheless explaining and substantiating my differences rather than merely denouncing what you say as "ignorant," and even if we nonetheless accept my fault, that just results in a criticism towards both of us rather than solely towards me.
I am engaging earnestly with you because you are actually making an effort to converse instead of just posting literal pig shit.
I would not have replied at all if I didn't recognize your username. You hadn't been saying anything in this thread that someone would normally think merits a serious response. You were derisive right out of the gate. To act this way and then complain about other people not turning the other cheek and speaking patiently to you is silly.
I promise you that if you make an alt (preferably with a different username in case people are grumpy with the interaction here) and post a thread on asklemmygrad or askchapo to the effect of "Hey, I'm a [whatever you call your flavor of liberalism], but I want to learn about what you believe on various topics and what you think of certain criticisms . . ." you will get mostly responses that are earnest. If you expect people to be polite and unassuming towards you when you begin by being aggressive and presumptuous, you will almost exclusively be disappointed, and I don't just mean that for interacting with commies.
Ignorance, once again, being the idea that ML orthodoxy is the only "true socialism." We've been over this already and I'm not sure there's much point in carrying on this conversation if you are going to intentionally misrepresent politics I have articulated to you a number of times.
And to be honest, it sounds like you are the one doing a lot of speaking for the Chinese while making a lot of assumptions about my relationship with Chinese society. I don't really feel the need to justify any of this to you or trade cultural credentials. That honestly feels offensive and chauvinist.
I do appreciate the discussion though. I hope we can continue this in a different setting somehow.
Ignorance, once again, being the idea that ML orthodoxy is the only "true socialism."
That is not the hexbear line and not even relevant to the thread. Being an anarchist or whatever you like doesn't mean believing western smears of China -- like this incredibly poor article that you keep talking around.
We've been over this already and I'm not sure there's much point in carrying on this conversation if you are going to intentionally misrepresent politics I have articulated to you a number of times.
I remember now from that conversation a week ago that you insist on being some type of socialist but I am pretty sure you never specified.
And to be honest, it sounds like you are the one doing a lot of speaking for the Chinese
It's not an unfounded opinion that the CPC has strong popular support. That doesn't mean the majority of China is ML in any serious way -- plainly, they don't seem to be -- but it does support the view that articles like this are a completely bullshit characterization of the PRC - RoC situation and most people in China (and many other countries in the imperial periphery) would agree.
while making a lot of assumptions about my relationship with Chinese society. I don't really feel the need to justify any of this to you or trade cultural credentials.
Reading another comment you made in this thread: Whoops, I guess you probably have met a Marxist or two. That wasn't terribly important to my argument, I was merely speculating on how you might have developed you false opinions. Given this new information, I don't have a new guess.
I don't care about your life and wasn't attempting to initiate some identity game, I merely try to understand things in terms of how ideology is downstream from personal circumstances, and how an ideology that is well-suited to one's personal circumstances can nonetheless lead them to have a distorted view of the world outside their experience. I support your inclination to not discuss these details with me but invite you to reflect on them to yourself in this context.
I read GS's thread, what do you want me to say? I have more personal, firsthand experience with China than anyone commenting there? I have family there? I speak the language? I have an actual stake in Chinese society? I think we've seen conclusively that none of that matters if you do a wrongspeak.
GS even admits that the brigading is obnoxious then goes on to defend it. Like I said, this is well beyond my ability to truly care, I was just really hoping that lemmy would be a place people could discuss these topics instead of just trolling, and then having double standards when someone else gently pushes back.
GS even admits that the brigading is obnoxious then goes on to defend it.
Dogpiling and brigading are two different things. Brigading is (at least loosely) coordinated, dogpiling is something people do when they are there, coordinated or not. The algorithm just happened to put this thread near the top on Hexbear, which is only federated with a handful of instances, as can be seen by the fact that I was the very first person to comment on it (next was op, then myself again, iirc). It is categorically false to my knowledge that this thread was "brigaded," a bunch of people with similar opinions on this issue just all saw the thread.
And it is obnoxious, but "obnoxious" doesn't mean "evil," especially when you were speaking so derisively about the people you had to have seen made up the bulk of the thread when you made your first comment. Honestly, what did you expect? In most political communities you'd get a very similar reaction, and I'd prefer a single emote to a "Crimes of China" copypasta filling up my inbox.
Scare quotes are used for discussing definitions, as in, uh . . . "socialism" is not "when the government does stuff". I was not meaning to convey that you used a word that you plainly did not, just highlighting that me agreeing to something being obnoxious does not mean agreeing to it being seriously wrong (which in common parlance might be called "evil").
I glanced at it. But you see what's happening here right? These people have no interest in anything but trolling.
I mean, it was made solely for your benefit (though I did like reading it). For your convenience, here it is again.
They are mocking you because they have assessed you as not interested in really engaging with people. If you were more unassuming, the response would be different. It sucks to be dogpiled-on, it has happened to me -- with this very group no less -- but it's good to try to have some perspective of the limits of the implications of such behavior.
Also hexbear is just a little excited to have liberals to use as punching bags via federation, so there's definitely a bit of a hair trigger. I generally prefer to stick to my own ways of talking with people for various reasons, but I struggle to find serious fault with them when I am essentially doing the same thing in my own way with others, and OP seriously brought this upon themselves by posting such a stupid, misleading, and alarmist article (see the comments about the Taiwan ADIZ from myself and others).
Edit:
also I checked back and yeah, you were picking a fight. Liberal complains about "brigading," socialist A criticizes them, socialist B riffs on socialist A's comment, then you come and reply to socialist B with "You seem upset," which I would struggle to read as anything other than condescending and terse.I misreadIt's not like you said "Hey, what about the Taiwan Strait part?" and got people screaming "HOG OUT OR LOG OUT!"
I don't think I've expressed any liberal sentiments here at all.
I legitimately don't care either way tbh. All this does is once again reinforce the idea that leftist spaces on the Internet are hostile to anything besides a very narrow set of ideas which makes up a very small and myopic subset of leftist thought. I am not here to cure anyone's ignorance. I am engaging earnestly with you because you are actually making an effort to converse instead of just posting literal pig shit.
Whoops, I misread the reply chain pretty severely, you can ignore the edit. You were picking a fight, but not along the lines I wrote there.
Neoliberal is a subset of liberal (in the traditional philosophical sense, not American vernacular), and there is a very clear divide in the thread between neoliberal and socialist.
With due respect, you're just a little Not Mad, but let's not belabor the point. I've been Not Mad too, it's not a sin.
There are a bunch of things wrong with this, starting with that the article was misleading dogshit and deserves to be mocked. Beyond that, the cultural clique of Hexbear can be myopic, but I think that it does not compare negatively to modern neoliberals in this respect. It is much more interested in international perspectives rather than the perspective of the "international community" (i.e. the EU + the Anglosphere + the most convenient elements of Taiwan, Japan, and SK). They quite frequently read neoliberal writing and listen to neoliberal speeches and so on, while neoliberals are usually content to hear about anything to do with their opposition exclusively through second- and third-hand reporting by their own media.
Which leads me into my next point, that "tankies" etc. are readily called fringe by liberals on the internet, but internationally represent a very common set of opinions (or a strong overlap therewith). It is itself myopia to dismiss the opinions of Chinese and many other people in the imperial periphery and consider only the opinions of the imperial core when evaluating what people think and what "leftist thought" consists of. You could not serious believe, for example, that the Collected Writings of Chairman Mao are important to only a "small subset of leftist thought," right? Sure, you are unlikely to know anyone -- or even to have ever met anyone in your real life -- who regards such a thing positively, but your personal experiences are not the world.
As an aside, the "bot" rhetoric that the liberals so often display is not really helping your case about the tankies being especially closed-minded.
Do you see how most people would not be interested in talking with someone who says things like this? That level of condescension rarely produces anything other than scorn.
"You are being condescending to me too!"
Sure, I don't think that's an unreasonable view (though not my intention), but I am nonetheless explaining and substantiating my differences rather than merely denouncing what you say as "ignorant," and even if we nonetheless accept my fault, that just results in a criticism towards both of us rather than solely towards me.
I would not have replied at all if I didn't recognize your username. You hadn't been saying anything in this thread that someone would normally think merits a serious response. You were derisive right out of the gate. To act this way and then complain about other people not turning the other cheek and speaking patiently to you is silly.
I promise you that if you make an alt (preferably with a different username in case people are grumpy with the interaction here) and post a thread on asklemmygrad or askchapo to the effect of "Hey, I'm a [whatever you call your flavor of liberalism], but I want to learn about what you believe on various topics and what you think of certain criticisms . . ." you will get mostly responses that are earnest. If you expect people to be polite and unassuming towards you when you begin by being aggressive and presumptuous, you will almost exclusively be disappointed, and I don't just mean that for interacting with commies.
Ignorance, once again, being the idea that ML orthodoxy is the only "true socialism." We've been over this already and I'm not sure there's much point in carrying on this conversation if you are going to intentionally misrepresent politics I have articulated to you a number of times.
And to be honest, it sounds like you are the one doing a lot of speaking for the Chinese while making a lot of assumptions about my relationship with Chinese society. I don't really feel the need to justify any of this to you or trade cultural credentials. That honestly feels offensive and chauvinist.
I do appreciate the discussion though. I hope we can continue this in a different setting somehow.
That is not the hexbear line and not even relevant to the thread. Being an anarchist or whatever you like doesn't mean believing western smears of China -- like this incredibly poor article that you keep talking around.
I remember now from that conversation a week ago that you insist on being some type of socialist but I am pretty sure you never specified.
It's not an unfounded opinion that the CPC has strong popular support. That doesn't mean the majority of China is ML in any serious way -- plainly, they don't seem to be -- but it does support the view that articles like this are a completely bullshit characterization of the PRC - RoC situation and most people in China (and many other countries in the imperial periphery) would agree.
Reading another comment you made in this thread: Whoops, I guess you probably have met a Marxist or two. That wasn't terribly important to my argument, I was merely speculating on how you might have developed you false opinions. Given this new information, I don't have a new guess.
I don't care about your life and wasn't attempting to initiate some identity game, I merely try to understand things in terms of how ideology is downstream from personal circumstances, and how an ideology that is well-suited to one's personal circumstances can nonetheless lead them to have a distorted view of the world outside their experience. I support your inclination to not discuss these details with me but invite you to reflect on them to yourself in this context.
They claim to be an anarcho-syndicalist.
hexbear literally bans anyone who posts this unironically. there's a strict rule against sectarianism.
"I am engaging earnestly with you because you are actually making an effort to converse instead of just posting literal pig shit."
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I read GS's thread, what do you want me to say? I have more personal, firsthand experience with China than anyone commenting there? I have family there? I speak the language? I have an actual stake in Chinese society? I think we've seen conclusively that none of that matters if you do a wrongspeak.
GS even admits that the brigading is obnoxious then goes on to defend it. Like I said, this is well beyond my ability to truly care, I was just really hoping that lemmy would be a place people could discuss these topics instead of just trolling, and then having double standards when someone else gently pushes back.
Edit - improper pronoun
Dogpiling and brigading are two different things. Brigading is (at least loosely) coordinated, dogpiling is something people do when they are there, coordinated or not. The algorithm just happened to put this thread near the top on Hexbear, which is only federated with a handful of instances, as can be seen by the fact that I was the very first person to comment on it (next was op, then myself again, iirc). It is categorically false to my knowledge that this thread was "brigaded," a bunch of people with similar opinions on this issue just all saw the thread.
And it is obnoxious, but "obnoxious" doesn't mean "evil," especially when you were speaking so derisively about the people you had to have seen made up the bulk of the thread when you made your first comment. Honestly, what did you expect? In most political communities you'd get a very similar reaction, and I'd prefer a single emote to a "Crimes of China" copypasta filling up my inbox.
I did use the word obnoxious, and not the word evil.
Scare quotes are used for discussing definitions, as in, uh . . . "socialism" is not "when the government does stuff". I was not meaning to convey that you used a word that you plainly did not, just highlighting that me agreeing to something being obnoxious does not mean agreeing to it being seriously wrong (which in common parlance might be called "evil").
Again, learn what federation is or go back to reddit. No one is "brigading"
You also can't say you were pushing back when you were trolling right out the gate and every other comment is in reply to you.
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You sound upset
You sound upset