Don't you fucking dare use Trans people as a shield when dems don't give a single fuck for the safety of Trans and queer spaces. This sort of behavior is not going to ingratiate you to anyone facing oppression right now under Biden or potentially Kopmala.
For fuck sake she literally forced Trans women to be jailed with men and deliberately kept people jailed for cannabis charges after it was decriminalized. For the sake of civility fuck your smug bullshit. I would say hell of a lot meaner shit to you on hexbear.
YOU don't do nothing! You'd unconditionally vote for the party committing genocide RIGHT NOW, their new candidate is not even a pivot, she's the current VP of the administration supporting genocide!
You just float along the shit river... whatever the Democrats do, you're there supporting them.
This is exactly why everything is getting more right wing.
The Democrats literally gave a standing ovation to Netanyahoo a couple of days ago, and Kamala gave out a statement against the Pro-Palestine protesters
in other words, what the fuck are you talking about?
You are simply deluded, you live in an alternate reality
The Democrats literally gave a standing ovation to Netanyahoo a couple of days ago,
Err, I mean, I'm on your side in the overall here and think the lemme moron youre arguing with is an idiot. But roughly half of congressional Democrats were not even at the speech, so just saying lets keep our counterpoints in the realm of what actually happened. To be clear, pretty much all the skips announced reasons that were pretty weaksauce so I'm not particularly impressed by most of them. But still, the congressional Democrats did not, as a group, all give a standing ovation to Netanyahu. Thats just inaccurate to say.
It must be nice to not care about horrible things happening to most people. It makes it so much easier when you don't care about people, right?
Sadly a question you can ask Kopmala and Biden themselves about why they're not trying to earn back the people whose votes they lost given what Trump's going to do, but I guess expecting two people to change course is probably infinitely harder than the many, many people who've decided not to bother voting.
But I guess those two must be kept safe from critical questions, seeing as no one's even trying to pressure them into changing course (except of course for the protesters who most likely count among those who won't be voting). Then again Biden himself isn't all that concerned about whether or not Trump wins if we're being honest.
What, materially, other than nice sounding words, has Biden and federal-level Democrats in general done to counteract what is happening to trans people in red states right now? What indication is there that Democrats care to do anything for trans people on a federal level? On the state level, sure, there's been some action to make blue states sanctuary states and such, but federally?
abortion, birth control,
Again, what have Biden and the federal level Democrats done about this? Did they codify Roe while they had the chance? Did they pack the courts so Roe couldn't be overturned? Did they build abortion clinics on Federal land? Or did they just, yet again, say nice words?
end unions
Biden literally broke a strike lmao. Personally, by his own hands. One of the few proactive things he has done in his whole presidency is to actively break a strike.
end democracy
We already don't live in a democracy. Youre choice is between outright facism and pretty damn close to fascism, and in most places in the country you dont even get to contribute to that choice.
and otherwise just be totally as bad as Republicans
On forgein policy and economics? Yeah pretty much. On social issues? Democrats will say nice words but, again at least federally, not materially do anything.
Roe v. Wade certainly would have still been overturned if the election in 2016 had gone the other way, too, right?
2016 is in the past and you learned the wrong lesson from it. 2016 taught us that running a shitty milquetoast war criminal neoliberal candidate that noone other than wine moms likes against fascism (and pied pipering him as the nominee because you think you can beat him in the process btw!!!) doesn't work. And again, both Obama and Biden could have codified Roe and didn't. And Biden could have packed the courts to prevent the overturn.
All in all, electorialism won't save us. And the violent solutions you wanted to avoid in your first post are actually our only way out of this mess. But they need to be organized.
It's not about defeating the us army lmao. It's about striking and civil disobedience, even when illegal. That is the basic strategy to win concessions. On a long term basis, there needs to be more pressure on Democrats to maintain standards instead of just electing garbage candidates.
Why would it not be enough? Do you think the purpose of striking is to convince more people to vote? No, it's to force concessions directly.
That's why building up dual power via leftist organizing is the key through-line of leftist thought, rather than playing into the game set up by the Dictatorship of the Bourgeoisie.
You don't have a democracy that can be ended. You haven't had one from the beginning of your republic. America is an aristocracy and anyone deluded enough to believe that it ever had anything approximating a democracy simply hasn't learnt anything.
There is like zero chance you or anyone else is going to apply any pressure or even this energy to Biden and Kamala to get them to change course, is there?
Absolutely ridiculous coming from someone not capable of understanding that the material conditions created by "harm reduction" neoliberal D governments of Clinton, Obama, and Biden actually accelerated the rise of fascism in the US
Not an American, so no real stake in this but, could you tell me what the Democrats have done in the past four years to protect trans rights? Since you're all so clearly concerned about them an' all.
Okay, can you be more specific about what they did to minimise damage? Like, did they make trans people a protected class, or relieve the bureaucracy around transitioning, or what?
I guess there's some small comfort that they'll at least pay lip service to trans rights then.
The labour party won an election over here and one of the first things they did was stop access to puberty blockers. During the election I was told by a lot of liberals preaching harm reduction that, as a trans woman, that I had to vote for them 'cos the Tories would be worse.
I'm worried about trans people over on your side of the ocean being in a similar position where the elections are between trans exterminationist and transphobe.
Huge problem imho, is that a lot of these people who rattle on about voting for harm reduction candidates go home after voting on election day and then don't get involved politically until the next election cycle.
In these bourgeois "democracies" political parties are always going to move to court wealthy donors and thus shift right wing. If you lot over in America can't mobilise enough people out in the street to fight for these causes, to grind your country to a screaming halt if needs be, then the Dems will be where labour is soon. Maybe not this election, but check back in with this comment by the midterms.
After all the Palestinian have been murdered under the watchful eyes of Biden and Harris, what ethnic or minority groups are you okay with exterminating in 2028?
You vote for the people responsible for the current Palestinian genocide.You're not just okay with it, you're cheerleading for Team Genocide. And the cherry on top is your scolding of Nakoichi, a real-life activist, while throwing a tantrum over voting for the blue face of the American Capitalism Party.
I think the thing that most impresses me about this post is how you just completely neglected to mention forgein policy in your list of things like at all. The Democrats and Republicans being the same regarding supporting the US Empire (besides one side or the other pretending to be anti-war while being in the opposition sometimes, but not following through on that once in power) is a huge factor here lol. Really shows your priorities and that you just do not give a single shit about the global south.
You could just choose to shut up do whatever you want. I have been doing actual political work and mutual aid work and defending my local comrades from pigs and liberals as well as fascists for over 20 years so kindly just quit this smarmy self important crusade you are on nobody gives a shit what you think.
They already are. Under Biden. They did under Obama too. When are you liberals going to get over your great man theory and learn that it's not Trump and it isn't just Netenyahu. The US and Israel will be the same regardless of which party is at the helm.
You don't give a shit about any of the things you mentioned because Democrats don't either.
There will be more after Trump and Netanyahu, and I will fight them as well. I will fight every fascist at every opportunity every time.
Why aren't you fighting the other half of the exact same fascist machine then? Instead you insist on carrying water for the fascists that put on a civil facade. That's not fighting fascism, that's aiding it.
Why won't you?
Oh fuck OFF. Nakoichi just fucking told you they have been doing REAL work to fight fascists for over 2 decades, but you completely ignore that. Such obvious bad faith.
Why don't you care about any of the people in America?
As a disabled person living off federal benefits, with a transgender girlfriend living in a red state, I'm literally got skin in the game personally, so don't tell me that I don't care about people living in America. The problem is there is an active genocide going on and the Biden adminstration, including Kamala, are supporting it.
If you think the parties are the same on foreign policy but the Democrats are better on all the thing I mentioned, doesn't that still mean the Democrats are less terrible?
I dont think they are materially better on the things you mentioned on the federal level as I mentioned in another post. The best they've done is nice sounding words. Another thing you forgot to mention btw is immigration, on which Biden has somehow managed to be materailly worse than Trump lmao. So theres that too.
and I would very much like to have an option that wasn't, but I don't, do I? I have to chose between the options given, and as bad as they are they're clearly the less bad option.
You have options that aren't that and they all involve doing literally any political thing other than voting. I literally don't care if you decide to vote for Kamala, especially if you live in a swing state. Just please, god, take your eye off electorialism because it won't save us.
Doing other things than voting doesn't stop you from voting. It takes 5 minutes every couple years. It is literally the least you can do
Voting for someone abetting a genocide (Biden, Harris) is endorsing that genocide. If the democrats win an election after funding a genocide, what kind of mesage is that sending all politicians, whether you like them or not? It's telling them that they can commit genocide without repercussion, they can commit genocide and still have the support of the voting public. Voting for genocidaires (let alone defending them and trying to get others to do the same) makes you complicit in the current genocide as well as the ones that are sure to follow due to green light given to those who perpetrate them. You're telling Democrats and any other politicians "as long as you give lip service to the things I care about - no need to follow through on them btw - then you can go ahead and murder entire nationalities and ethnic groups the world over, it's ok, I'll still vote for you." Fucking disgusting.
What a laughable deflection. Politicians give a shit what the voting public in aggregate does, dipshit. If they don't give a shit what you think, why are you advocating for one half of them? Why are you trying (and failing so bad it's funny) to argue that people should vote for one team of them that you think are "less bad"?
but I'm not so far up my own ass that I don't care about the consequences of my actions.
Like, do you really not care that you completely contradict yourself from one comment to the next, or hell, from one sentence to the next?
More people will die if Trump wins, and that is all that matter to me.
Meanwhile Biden & Harris fund a literal, undeniable genocide. You are such a clown I'd think it was impressive if it weren't so disgusting.
If you think that's supporting genocide then you can take you sick bizarro logic and shove it up your ass.
Yeah, refusing to vote for genocidaires is "sick, bizarro logic" but sending them your approval by voting and stanning for the genocidaires is "fighting fascism." Nah, you can take your sick, twisted, fascist-apologist illogical rationalizations and shove them up your ass, you sycophantic loser.
And serious, how can you not understand even after RvW that doing nothing is still better for you than what the Republicans will do.
The republicans do it anyway!! The republicans do what they want, the democrats allow them to while raking in donations by telling everyone how mean the republicans are! It's not that the democrats are better because they don't do bad things but republicans do, it's that they are both parts of the same machine that does these things, playing their respective roles! How can you be so fucking blind as not see the blatant "good cop/bad cop" routine for what it is?? And yet you are calling other people morons (ableist language by the way, asshole) for trying to get this very obvious reality through to you!
or having the possibility of making better choices in the future
How's that working out for you if you look at the past few elections? Did you manage to push Biden left? Have they prosecuted the American war criminals? How far is Genocide Joe from your ideal? Is Copmala gonna be better, improving material circumstances?
Can't you see that neoliberalism had literally the opposite effect - pushed everything even more right and extreme?
Americans have this weird view of Russians and Putinists and liberals think that the Chinese are a brainwashed hivemind— but you look crazy from the outside when you argue for voting Mussolini against Hitler.
Democrats supported genocide and their brinkmanship with Russia got us closer to Nuclear Armageddon, fuck y'all
The fundamental problem with leftists is that we're mostly smug assholes who refuse to work with anyone we disagree with,
I'm not American - I'm saying you are worse than what liberals say Russian and Chinese are
anyone we disagree with,
Economically they are neoliberals - leftists are opposed to neoliberalism
Their foreign policy is brinkmanship, genocide and bombing allied infrastructure
This is 0/2- how are they not enemies rather than "someone I disagree with"?
until that changes we will remain completely irrelevant.
You will remain irrelevant because you'd vote D whatever they do. It seems like you represent the Dems as a project whatever they do, rather than they represent the voter base, earning votes.
Which is ass backwards.
Whether you like it or not they don't see your vote as an endorsement of the marginal differences, they see it as an endrosement of everything they're doing, including that genocide thats going on.
If genocide doesn't change the calculus in your mind, then nothing ever will. And genocide is only like the tip of the iceberg in terms of problems with the democratic party.
The Biden admin has single handedly fucked my budget despite me living in europe by bombing the nordstream and the shit they pulled with project Ukraine.
They are actively trying to drag humanity into world war 3 on like 3 different fronts. That's not getting into the shit the Biden admin is probably pulling in Africa and Latin America (which I am less knowledgeable about).
There were plenty of mildly progressive candidates that could have done things in power were modern America not a neoliberal hellhole. Beanie, AOC, the squad, Jill stien, Claudia de la cuz. Those are the current ones. Going further back, people like gore or nader could have played the role. But all of these people either got shafted through institutional factors or got cooped and forced to water down even their milquetoast radicalism. Many of these people were neutered by the Democrats.
On the movement level, the Democrats coopted, neutered then mutilated the corpse of the BLM social unrest in 2020, which could have been used to otherwise fuel a lot of progressive changes. Instead, the dems not only killed it, but poured salt on the wounds by increasing police budgets nationwide and even helping to build cop cities and expanding surveillance now!
The fact that the Democrats are less rabid than the Republicans does not make them easier enemies to deal with, but more dangerous. They have more patience and play the long game.
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Don't you fucking dare use Trans people as a shield when dems don't give a single fuck for the safety of Trans and queer spaces. This sort of behavior is not going to ingratiate you to anyone facing oppression right now under Biden or potentially Kopmala.
For fuck sake she literally forced Trans women to be jailed with men and deliberately kept people jailed for cannabis charges after it was decriminalized. For the sake of civility fuck your smug bullshit. I would say hell of a lot meaner shit to you on hexbear.
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YOU don't do nothing! You'd unconditionally vote for the party committing genocide RIGHT NOW, their new candidate is not even a pivot, she's the current VP of the administration supporting genocide!
You just float along the shit river... whatever the Democrats do, you're there supporting them.
This is exactly why everything is getting more right wing.
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THEY ARE SUPPORTING GENOCIDE IN GAZA AND THEY KEEP THE UKRAINE MEAT GRINDER GOING
You are literally describing yourself, fuck your harm reduction
I'm not American, but US policies have a material effect on me, and I hate liberals
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The Democrats literally gave a standing ovation to Netanyahoo a couple of days ago, and Kamala gave out a statement against the Pro-Palestine protesters
in other words, what the fuck are you talking about?
You are simply deluded, you live in an alternate reality
Err, I mean, I'm on your side in the overall here and think the lemme moron youre arguing with is an idiot. But roughly half of congressional Democrats were not even at the speech, so just saying lets keep our counterpoints in the realm of what actually happened. To be clear, pretty much all the skips announced reasons that were pretty weaksauce so I'm not particularly impressed by most of them. But still, the congressional Democrats did not, as a group, all give a standing ovation to Netanyahu. Thats just inaccurate to say.
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Sadly a question you can ask Kopmala and Biden themselves about why they're not trying to earn back the people whose votes they lost given what Trump's going to do, but I guess expecting two people to change course is probably infinitely harder than the many, many people who've decided not to bother voting.
But I guess those two must be kept safe from critical questions, seeing as no one's even trying to pressure them into changing course (except of course for the protesters who most likely count among those who won't be voting). Then again Biden himself isn't all that concerned about whether or not Trump wins if we're being honest.
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What, materially, other than nice sounding words, has Biden and federal-level Democrats in general done to counteract what is happening to trans people in red states right now? What indication is there that Democrats care to do anything for trans people on a federal level? On the state level, sure, there's been some action to make blue states sanctuary states and such, but federally?
Again, what have Biden and the federal level Democrats done about this? Did they codify Roe while they had the chance? Did they pack the courts so Roe couldn't be overturned? Did they build abortion clinics on Federal land? Or did they just, yet again, say nice words?
Biden literally broke a strike lmao. Personally, by his own hands. One of the few proactive things he has done in his whole presidency is to actively break a strike.
We already don't live in a democracy. Youre choice is between outright facism and pretty damn close to fascism, and in most places in the country you dont even get to contribute to that choice.
On forgein policy and economics? Yeah pretty much. On social issues? Democrats will say nice words but, again at least federally, not materially do anything.
2016 is in the past and you learned the wrong lesson from it. 2016 taught us that running a shitty milquetoast war criminal neoliberal candidate that noone other than wine moms likes against fascism (and pied pipering him as the nominee because you think you can beat him in the process btw!!!) doesn't work. And again, both Obama and Biden could have codified Roe and didn't. And Biden could have packed the courts to prevent the overturn.
All in all, electorialism won't save us. And the violent solutions you wanted to avoid in your first post are actually our only way out of this mess. But they need to be organized.
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It's not about defeating the us army lmao. It's about striking and civil disobedience, even when illegal. That is the basic strategy to win concessions. On a long term basis, there needs to be more pressure on Democrats to maintain standards instead of just electing garbage candidates.
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Why would it not be enough? Do you think the purpose of striking is to convince more people to vote? No, it's to force concessions directly.
That's why building up dual power via leftist organizing is the key through-line of leftist thought, rather than playing into the game set up by the Dictatorship of the Bourgeoisie.
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You don't have a democracy that can be ended. You haven't had one from the beginning of your republic. America is an aristocracy and anyone deluded enough to believe that it ever had anything approximating a democracy simply hasn't learnt anything.
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There is like zero chance you or anyone else is going to apply any pressure or even this energy to Biden and Kamala to get them to change course, is there?
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This is what Democrats did this year.
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Absolutely ridiculous coming from someone not capable of understanding that the material conditions created by "harm reduction" neoliberal D governments of Clinton, Obama, and Biden actually accelerated the rise of fascism in the US
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Not an American, so no real stake in this but, could you tell me what the Democrats have done in the past four years to protect trans rights? Since you're all so clearly concerned about them an' all.
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Okay, can you be more specific about what they did to minimise damage? Like, did they make trans people a protected class, or relieve the bureaucracy around transitioning, or what?
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I guess there's some small comfort that they'll at least pay lip service to trans rights then.
The labour party won an election over here and one of the first things they did was stop access to puberty blockers. During the election I was told by a lot of liberals preaching harm reduction that, as a trans woman, that I had to vote for them 'cos the Tories would be worse.
I'm worried about trans people over on your side of the ocean being in a similar position where the elections are between trans exterminationist and transphobe.
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Huge problem imho, is that a lot of these people who rattle on about voting for harm reduction candidates go home after voting on election day and then don't get involved politically until the next election cycle.
In these bourgeois "democracies" political parties are always going to move to court wealthy donors and thus shift right wing. If you lot over in America can't mobilise enough people out in the street to fight for these causes, to grind your country to a screaming halt if needs be, then the Dems will be where labour is soon. Maybe not this election, but check back in with this comment by the midterms.
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You are drowning in the blood of 200,000 Palestinians.
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You gasp for air, but all you get is a mouthful of blood -- blood from the 200,000 Palestinians killed in a genocide you support.
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After all the Palestinian have been murdered under the watchful eyes of Biden and Harris, what ethnic or minority groups are you okay with exterminating in 2028?
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You vote for the people responsible for the current Palestinian genocide.You're not just okay with it, you're cheerleading for Team Genocide. And the cherry on top is your scolding of Nakoichi, a real-life activist, while throwing a tantrum over voting for the blue face of the American Capitalism Party.
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I think the thing that most impresses me about this post is how you just completely neglected to mention forgein policy in your list of things like at all. The Democrats and Republicans being the same regarding supporting the US Empire (besides one side or the other pretending to be anti-war while being in the opposition sometimes, but not following through on that once in power) is a huge factor here lol. Really shows your priorities and that you just do not give a single shit about the global south.
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You could just choose to shut up do whatever you want. I have been doing actual political work and mutual aid work and defending my local comrades from pigs and liberals as well as fascists for over 20 years so kindly just quit this smarmy self important crusade you are on nobody gives a shit what you think.
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They already are. Under Biden. They did under Obama too. When are you liberals going to get over your great man theory and learn that it's not Trump and it isn't just Netenyahu. The US and Israel will be the same regardless of which party is at the helm.
You don't give a shit about any of the things you mentioned because Democrats don't either.
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Why aren't you fighting the other half of the exact same fascist machine then? Instead you insist on carrying water for the fascists that put on a civil facade. That's not fighting fascism, that's aiding it.
Oh fuck OFF. Nakoichi just fucking told you they have been doing REAL work to fight fascists for over 2 decades, but you completely ignore that. Such obvious bad faith.
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As a disabled person living off federal benefits, with a transgender girlfriend living in a red state, I'm literally got skin in the game personally, so don't tell me that I don't care about people living in America. The problem is there is an active genocide going on and the Biden adminstration, including Kamala, are supporting it.
I dont think they are materially better on the things you mentioned on the federal level as I mentioned in another post. The best they've done is nice sounding words. Another thing you forgot to mention btw is immigration, on which Biden has somehow managed to be materailly worse than Trump lmao. So theres that too.
You have options that aren't that and they all involve doing literally any political thing other than voting. I literally don't care if you decide to vote for Kamala, especially if you live in a swing state. Just please, god, take your eye off electorialism because it won't save us.
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Voting for someone abetting a genocide (Biden, Harris) is endorsing that genocide. If the democrats win an election after funding a genocide, what kind of mesage is that sending all politicians, whether you like them or not? It's telling them that they can commit genocide without repercussion, they can commit genocide and still have the support of the voting public. Voting for genocidaires (let alone defending them and trying to get others to do the same) makes you complicit in the current genocide as well as the ones that are sure to follow due to green light given to those who perpetrate them. You're telling Democrats and any other politicians "as long as you give lip service to the things I care about - no need to follow through on them btw - then you can go ahead and murder entire nationalities and ethnic groups the world over, it's ok, I'll still vote for you." Fucking disgusting.
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What a laughable deflection. Politicians give a shit what the voting public in aggregate does, dipshit. If they don't give a shit what you think, why are you advocating for one half of them? Why are you trying (and failing so bad it's funny) to argue that people should vote for one team of them that you think are "less bad"?
Like, do you really not care that you completely contradict yourself from one comment to the next, or hell, from one sentence to the next?
Meanwhile Biden & Harris fund a literal, undeniable genocide. You are such a clown I'd think it was impressive if it weren't so disgusting.
Yeah, refusing to vote for genocidaires is "sick, bizarro logic" but sending them your approval by voting and stanning for the genocidaires is "fighting fascism." Nah, you can take your sick, twisted, fascist-apologist illogical rationalizations and shove them up your ass, you sycophantic loser.
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The republicans do it anyway!! The republicans do what they want, the democrats allow them to while raking in donations by telling everyone how mean the republicans are! It's not that the democrats are better because they don't do bad things but republicans do, it's that they are both parts of the same machine that does these things, playing their respective roles! How can you be so fucking blind as not see the blatant "good cop/bad cop" routine for what it is?? And yet you are calling other people morons (ableist language by the way, asshole) for trying to get this very obvious reality through to you!
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How's that working out for you if you look at the past few elections? Did you manage to push Biden left? Have they prosecuted the American war criminals? How far is Genocide Joe from your ideal? Is Copmala gonna be better, improving material circumstances?
Can't you see that neoliberalism had literally the opposite effect - pushed everything even more right and extreme?
Americans have this weird view of Russians and Putinists and liberals think that the Chinese are a brainwashed hivemind— but you look crazy from the outside when you argue for voting Mussolini against Hitler.
Democrats supported genocide and their brinkmanship with Russia got us closer to Nuclear Armageddon, fuck y'all
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I'm not American - I'm saying you are worse than what liberals say Russian and Chinese are
This is 0/2- how are they not enemies rather than "someone I disagree with"?
You will remain irrelevant because you'd vote D whatever they do. It seems like you represent the Dems as a project whatever they do, rather than they represent the voter base, earning votes.
Which is ass backwards.
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Whether you like it or not they don't see your vote as an endorsement of the marginal differences, they see it as an endrosement of everything they're doing, including that genocide thats going on.
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If genocide doesn't change the calculus in your mind, then nothing ever will. And genocide is only like the tip of the iceberg in terms of problems with the democratic party.
The Biden admin has single handedly fucked my budget despite me living in europe by bombing the nordstream and the shit they pulled with project Ukraine.
They are actively trying to drag humanity into world war 3 on like 3 different fronts. That's not getting into the shit the Biden admin is probably pulling in Africa and Latin America (which I am less knowledgeable about).
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We had better options many times in history. They all got shafted by the dems or republicans.
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There were plenty of mildly progressive candidates that could have done things in power were modern America not a neoliberal hellhole. Beanie, AOC, the squad, Jill stien, Claudia de la cuz. Those are the current ones. Going further back, people like gore or nader could have played the role. But all of these people either got shafted through institutional factors or got cooped and forced to water down even their milquetoast radicalism. Many of these people were neutered by the Democrats.
On the movement level, the Democrats coopted, neutered then mutilated the corpse of the BLM social unrest in 2020, which could have been used to otherwise fuel a lot of progressive changes. Instead, the dems not only killed it, but poured salt on the wounds by increasing police budgets nationwide and even helping to build cop cities and expanding surveillance now!
The fact that the Democrats are less rabid than the Republicans does not make them easier enemies to deal with, but more dangerous. They have more patience and play the long game.