196 had extreme crossover with the vaush sub, I think mods too? Either way I got banned for shittalking NATO there over 3 years ago and haven't bothered to check in since.
I didn't participate in 196 when I was on Reddit. And I've just now learned about Vaush. For what it's worth, I haven't seen him mentioned on this 196.
Although I'm pro-NATO. I've no way to know how representative that stance is of the general user base of this instance. But I'm of the opinion that it's a common position.
The observed baseline for libs on reddit is defending as if it's a left wing position because the republicans are 'worse', with lots of unexamined western chauvinism piled on top, and hostile misogyny if you push back on it.
Obama was president when NATO returned the slave trade to Libya- to quote his secretary of state Hillary Clinton: "we came, we saw, he died". I'm sure you have all sorts of state-approved positions on Americas state enemies, but that's the historical reality you're whitewashing.
I'll admit my knowledge on US involvement in Libya is lacking. I was a junior in high school at the time and I don't remember hearing much about it. I'll have to read up on it if I'm going to debate it with you. At a glance, it looks Obama would agree with you. Reestablishing the slave trade in Libya doesn't seem to be the outcome he was hoping for. edit: typo
I really don't understand how someone can come the conclusion that NATO is a good thing? :/ They've carried out some absolutely awful military operations that have taken many lives. They are not, in any way, a "defensive alliance" and have never acted like one. Like, the bare minimum that I ask is "Russia and NATO are both bad" (and thats not even wrong, its just said in bad faith sometimes). But outright saying NATO is good? :/
"The west" as a whole does not have a right to defend itself. "The west" is not a nation. Considering it one has white supremacist vibes, I'm sure from your other posts that you don't intend them, but the implications are there.
You have been lied to about Yugoslavia. In fact, the bombing of Yugoslavia would have been one of the atrocities I brought up, considering the 500 civilian deaths and 6000 civilian wounded that resulted from it. At the very least, while there may have been a genocide going on there, NATO's goals were not to stop it. It was an excuse to enforce further western hegemony over the region. I Unfortunately I am not prepared with sources on that issue so I hope someone else in this thread will come through with some for you. I always forget to bookmark sources even though I know I'll need them later. You'll just hopefully trust me that I have read stuff about this before. I just forgot to save it.
Lastly, its stated goals mean nothing to me when they supported the invasion of Afghanistan (as just one example). Was that a defensive war?
“The west” as a whole does not have a right to defend itself. “The west” is not a nation. Considering it one has white supremacist vibes, I’m sure from your other posts that you don’t intend them, but the implications are there.
We have the collective right to defend ourselves. Individually any one European nation would be hard pressed to defend against Russia on its own. I don't see how self defense gives off white supremacy vibes. NATO existing as a defensive alliance doesn't prevent anyone else from doing the same thing.
Bookmarking stuff can get quickly out of hand. If you find it later post it here I guess. I think we are going to have agree to disagree. There was genocide happening in Yugoslavia. NATO intervened to stop it. Not everything is a conspiracy.
Lastly, its stated goals mean nothing to me when they supported the invasion of Afghanistan (as just one example). Was that a defensive war?
The Taliban harbored al-Qaeda which used Afghanistan as its base of operations when it coordinate the 9/11 and 7/7 terrorist attacks. So yes.
The NATO intervention in Yugoslavia was hardly to prevent a genocide unless you believe the US suddenly started caring about Muslim life - and then went on to maraud across the middle east leaving a trail of bodies in its wake.
There's documented accounts of displaced Romani having to pretend to be Kosavar Albanians because there was zero humanitarian aid available for people not of the chosen ethnic group of the day.
One of the most interesting facets of the NATO air campaign is how they managed to demolish all the state owned factories and infrastructure, but leave the ones owned by westerners.
There's also another issue with what NATO did to Serbia - Kosovo voted to unilaterally secede. I can think of at least one other prominent example where another territory did just that and it is seen as totally illegitimate by basically everyone in the west. Which is it?
The Taliban harbored al-Qaeda which used Afghanistan as its base of operations when it coordinate the 9/11 and 7/7 terrorist attacks. So yes.
The US was their first backers, getting 9/11'd was just blowback for shitty decisions made decades ago, and murdering a bunch of Afghanis and Iraqis was hardly defensive. We totally had troops guarding poppy fields and oil derricks for like 2 decades after as a part of that "defensive" operation.
I can think of at least one other prominent example where another territory did just that and it is seen as totally illegitimate by basically everyone in the west. Which is it?
separatist regions of Ukraine? Haiti? Northern Ireland? there's so many good options to choose from
The NATO intervention in Yugoslavia was hardly to prevent a genocide
NATO values human life, including muslim people. I won't deny conservatives in western countries tend to be anti-muslim. I'm going to evaluate Yugoslavia on it's own context and not based on wars in the Middle East.
One of the most interesting facets of the NATO air campaign is how they managed to demolish all the state owned factories and infrastructure, but leave the ones owned by westerners.
This sounds like a conspiracy theory to me.
There’s also another issue with what NATO did to Serbia - Kosovo voted to unilaterally secede. I can think of at least one other prominent example where another territory did just that and it is seen as totally illegitimate by basically everyone in the west. Which is it?
Oh, if you mean the Donbas region, those elections were a sham. It's best not to believe Russian propaganda.
The US was their first backers, getting 9/11’d was just blowback for shitty decisions made decades ago, and murdering a bunch of Afghanis and Iraqis was hardly defensive. We totally had troops guarding poppy fields and oil derricks for like 2 decades after as a part of that “defensive” operation.
We were attacked by state sponsored terror. The war in Afghanistan was defensive. Iraq not so much, like there were never weapons of mass destruction.
The Taliban harbored al-Qaeda which used Afghanistan as its base of operations when it coordinate the 9/11 and 7/7 terrorist attacks. So yes.
9/11 was funded and perpetrated by Saudi Arabia, a US ally that has bragged about the fact on twitter. we didn't go after them, in fact we've continued to supply them with money and arms, especially as they conduct a genocide against Yemen.
Yeah, we should stop buddying with a monarchy for their oil. We need to invest in renewables, modern nuclear fission plants, and nuclear fusion as quickly as possible.
lmao this is almost cute. I do not have to "mark you for being swarmed", you're getting swarmed because a good deal of our terminally online userbase sees your shitty, nationalist, chauvinist take defending a genocidal war machinery and voice their heartfelt, justified disagreement with your imperialist bloodlust. PPB is a way to do that without having to engage in tedious, draining, pointless debate. It's just our shorthand for "fuck off with your bs". None of this is coordinated or centrally planned in any way, and it's honestly hillarious that you think we're this menacing, disciplined troll army when we're just a bunch of shitposting trans girls, some working class dudes who are still rightfully pissed at the propertied class instead of venting their frustration and alienation on the marginalized, and a few people RPing as a flock of constantly pooping birds.
The sarcasm has not been missed. Yugoslavia was where the Bosnian genocide took place, NATO intervened. Afghanistan harbored al-Qaeda. Honestly Iraq seems like it was a personal vendetta for Bush backed up by his think tank that thought they could impose democracy.
What was that subreddit about? =/
196 had extreme crossover with the vaush sub, I think mods too? Either way I got banned for shittalking NATO there over 3 years ago and haven't bothered to check in since.
Are you talking about this guy?
https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/people/vaush
I didn't participate in 196 when I was on Reddit. And I've just now learned about Vaush. For what it's worth, I haven't seen him mentioned on this 196.
Although I'm pro-NATO. I've no way to know how representative that stance is of the general user base of this instance. But I'm of the opinion that it's a common position.
The observed baseline for libs on reddit is defending
as if it's a left wing position because the republicans are 'worse', with lots of unexamined western chauvinism piled on top, and hostile 
misogyny if you push back on it.
Obama was president when NATO returned the slave trade to Libya- to quote his secretary of state Hillary Clinton: "we came, we saw, he died". I'm sure you have all sorts of state-approved positions on Americas state enemies, but that's the historical reality you're whitewashing.
I'll admit my knowledge on US involvement in Libya is lacking. I was a junior in high school at the time and I don't remember hearing much about it. I'll have to read up on it if I'm going to debate it with you. At a glance, it looks Obama would agree with you. Reestablishing the slave trade in Libya doesn't seem to be the outcome he was hoping for. edit: typo
https://www.newsweek.com/obama-responsible-libyan-slave-trade-730875
From the article you just posted, I clicked the link to read what he actually said, and I read it as he expressed regret for not intervening more!
It's like criminals expressing regret for getting caught.
Yeah, I think he didn't want to leave Libya in the mess it was in. That's my assessment at a glance.
Feel free to ignore what he actually said. My assessment is he feels bad because it made him look bad politically.
I really don't understand how someone can come the conclusion that NATO is a good thing? :/ They've carried out some absolutely awful military operations that have taken many lives. They are not, in any way, a "defensive alliance" and have never acted like one. Like, the bare minimum that I ask is "Russia and NATO are both bad" (and thats not even wrong, its just said in bad faith sometimes). But outright saying NATO is good? :/
The West has the right to defend itself. As does everyone.
NATO has intervened to stop genocide.
NATO is in fact a defensive alliance. Here is article 5.
"The west" as a whole does not have a right to defend itself. "The west" is not a nation. Considering it one has white supremacist vibes, I'm sure from your other posts that you don't intend them, but the implications are there.
You have been lied to about Yugoslavia. In fact, the bombing of Yugoslavia would have been one of the atrocities I brought up, considering the 500 civilian deaths and 6000 civilian wounded that resulted from it. At the very least, while there may have been a genocide going on there, NATO's goals were not to stop it. It was an excuse to enforce further western hegemony over the region. I Unfortunately I am not prepared with sources on that issue so I hope someone else in this thread will come through with some for you. I always forget to bookmark sources even though I know I'll need them later. You'll just hopefully trust me that I have read stuff about this before. I just forgot to save it.
Lastly, its stated goals mean nothing to me when they supported the invasion of Afghanistan (as just one example). Was that a defensive war?
They really are a step away from reciting the 14 words
We have the collective right to defend ourselves. Individually any one European nation would be hard pressed to defend against Russia on its own. I don't see how self defense gives off white supremacy vibes. NATO existing as a defensive alliance doesn't prevent anyone else from doing the same thing.
Bookmarking stuff can get quickly out of hand. If you find it later post it here I guess. I think we are going to have agree to disagree. There was genocide happening in Yugoslavia. NATO intervened to stop it. Not everything is a conspiracy.
The Taliban harbored al-Qaeda which used Afghanistan as its base of operations when it coordinate the 9/11 and 7/7 terrorist attacks. So yes.
The NATO intervention in Yugoslavia was hardly to prevent a genocide unless you believe the US suddenly started caring about Muslim life - and then went on to maraud across the middle east leaving a trail of bodies in its wake.
There's documented accounts of displaced Romani having to pretend to be Kosavar Albanians because there was zero humanitarian aid available for people not of the chosen ethnic group of the day.
One of the most interesting facets of the NATO air campaign is how they managed to demolish all the state owned factories and infrastructure, but leave the ones owned by westerners.
There's also another issue with what NATO did to Serbia - Kosovo voted to unilaterally secede. I can think of at least one other prominent example where another territory did just that and it is seen as totally illegitimate by basically everyone in the west. Which is it?
The US was their first backers, getting 9/11'd was just blowback for shitty decisions made decades ago, and murdering a bunch of Afghanis and Iraqis was hardly defensive. We totally had troops guarding poppy fields and oil derricks for like 2 decades after as a part of that "defensive" operation.
separatist regions of Ukraine? Haiti? Northern Ireland? there's so many good options to choose from
This sounds like a conspiracy theory to me.
Oh, if you mean the Donbas region, those elections were a sham. It's best not to believe Russian propaganda.
We were attacked by state sponsored terror. The war in Afghanistan was defensive. Iraq not so much, like there were never weapons of mass destruction.
9/11 was funded and perpetrated by Saudi Arabia, a US ally that has bragged about the fact on twitter. we didn't go after them, in fact we've continued to supply them with money and arms, especially as they conduct a genocide against Yemen.
Yeah, we should stop buddying with a monarchy for their oil. We need to invest in renewables, modern nuclear fission plants, and nuclear fusion as quickly as possible.
So this is the PPB right? What do you think this achieves besides sharing a funny picture? Or is it just a way to mark me for being swarmed?
lmao this is almost cute. I do not have to "mark you for being swarmed", you're getting swarmed because a good deal of our terminally online userbase sees your shitty, nationalist, chauvinist take defending a genocidal war machinery and voice their heartfelt, justified disagreement with your imperialist bloodlust. PPB is a way to do that without having to engage in tedious, draining, pointless debate. It's just our shorthand for "fuck off with your bs". None of this is coordinated or centrally planned in any way, and it's honestly hillarious that you think we're this menacing, disciplined troll army when we're just a bunch of shitposting trans girls, some working class dudes who are still rightfully pissed at the propertied class instead of venting their frustration and alienation on the marginalized, and a few people RPing as a flock of constantly pooping birds.
Thanks for the explanation.
sure were amazing defensive actions in Yugoslavia, Afghanistan, and Iraq
The sarcasm has not been missed. Yugoslavia was where the Bosnian genocide took place, NATO intervened. Afghanistan harbored al-Qaeda. Honestly Iraq seems like it was a personal vendetta for Bush backed up by his think tank that thought they could impose democracy.