Final Edit: I have decided to take a break from here for undecided time. I might come back when sure of myself. Limited activity at main instance.
Edit: I am replying, so please refer to them to get an idea of my worldview.
Context: https://lemmygrad.ml/post/650259 and these removed comments of mine, before Forte temp banned me
a screenshot of my comments
Before I start off, I want to tell that it is true that I am a cis het male human that holds monogamist views with the mildest of traditional takes. It is also true that despite never having had a real mother or a girlfriend in my life, I never became an incel. My mindset at the core is unapologetically survivalist, independent and masculine. I have also been chivalrous with women, and have been inclusive of the non binary communities. Some people will try to portray this as me never getting female love in life and all kinds of assumption based crap, which I can counter with years of selfless privacy community work.
I want to know what is so misogynistic about:
- a woman having multiple boyfriends and being a social player, which is very common today in the dating scene
- traditional views like monogamy instead of promiscuity are better
- social code being different for men and women
- women often dating for free food
- Western feminism not being a true representation of feminism, and how much it currently harms mainly men, and creating polarisation between both sexes
- psychology of dominance and submission in relationships factoring into the stability of any long term relationships, including marriage
Is it not deceitful to deny these patterns exist, and to just call someone misogynistic and shut down the conversation? Or have I misunderstood what Lemmygrad means for these kinds of conversations?
When did this place become so lib, that people were straight up told to "change your ways before you end up ruining a poor girl’s life", or how "using 'male' and 'female' to refer to men and women as if they're animals" is a terminology that radical feminists would otherwise get excused for? What are these assumed ideas I have that are so batshit crazy, compared to the kinds of values that hardcore masculinity gurus, Tate fans, incels/femcels hold? And what is the defined threshold expected for this place to accommodate people?
I hope I do not see a "404:site_ban" before I get to engage and get answers on this, and have a decent conversation. I am not threatening. I merely want a dialogue.
Most radfems are also against trans people. Does this automatically give you the excuse to start being transphobic too? Despite that neither we use dehumanizing terms like "male" and "female"; nor do we believe in transphobic nonsense, so what's your excuse here?
Of course, you weren't being transphobic back in the thread but I mentioned this because, as you say, "radfems use it so it's okay if I use it too".
What, do you think we treat radfems like comrades or something? Lmfao no. Most of them can go to hell like their libfem counterparts.
It's not "lib" to see women as something more than what you imagine women to be (merely just a pre-programmed set of behaviors without any differences or chances of growth, improvements or changes whatsoever).
Sure, some could have a few traits as mentioned above (only human after all, and some humans are scummy regardless of gender); but to say all women are like that is straight up falling towards Incel/MGTOW territory.
Very, very interesting how rather than using polygamy, you used promiscuity though. 🙂
And besides...
So fucking what? You men can get away with bedding lots of women and society barely bats an eye. It's only when women do the same that you guys start seething. What, do you also believe in manospherical nonsenses like how virgin women are "magical" and that a "player" woman is just "used and dried up"?
Are these set in stone, huh? So much for being a fucking leftist if you believe in this regressing shit.
What, did you had like bad experiences with women in the past that made you develop these thoughts? Or is it the fact that you got exposed to misogynist youtubers (as a kid)? I know they are extremely popular on the subcontinent, living there myself.
That clarifies one point, thanks.
I never said all women. I do not engage in liberal/fascist generalisation behaviours like that. However, many women in urban areas do have one or more of these behaviours, thanks to the incredible amount of sexualisation of mass media creating construed images of reality in womens' heads.
Yes, I wanted to gauge a reaction on this. Polygamy is harmful for both sexes and for society as a whole. I want to cover this bit in the next part where you made a massive generalisation.
Let me tell you a few things. Women are the gatekeepers of relationships, which includes sexual relations. If a woman says no, man will go home. And these "you men" are not all men, but probably the 10% fuckboys that engage with a lot of misled women, again, thanks to oversexualisation of mass media. This happens mostly during post teenage years upto early 30s for both sexes.
Another point I want to make is that a woman is considered purer than men for the single most important reason – she has the womb and she has to be in a healthy state to carry the baby. Woman is the one who will procreate, not the man. I know that the fuckboys/fuckgirls rationalisation is imbalanced, which is precisely why I think sex is a sacred thing, and it is not meant to be abused by anyone. Obsession with sex, drugs et al is bad for a valid reason.
Chivalry is dead. Good men never get rewarded with healthy relationships in society, until an arranged marriage in most cases has to happen. Good women either are corrupted by mass media, or get tired of the incredibly conservative families they live in, and end up marrying people they do not inherently truly love.
There are certain social codes for men and women that are simply going to exist, unless bizarre things like artificial wombs come into existence, erasing the codependency of man and woman. Yes, there are things that can be improved on both ends, and it is a very long conversation.
No bad experiences made me develop particular thoughts. However, one feminist whose friend I loved back in college, did tell me that my self improvement did not matter to anyone, and tried to rage bait me as well. That solidified my thoughts on liberals and not women.
I never watched Tate or Shapiro or the likes, but I try to watch a healthy mix of content, mostly averaging as moderate on the spectrum. Matthew Hussey, Kevin Samuels, J-Hall and Whatever podcast. I keep a very tight hold on what views are shared there, selectively discarding anything that goes too conservative. These tubers are not incels or MGTOW, but closer to a mix of redpill/blackpill, mostly hovering around centre or centre-right.
Polygamy / Polyandry is not harmful to society in any way, in fact it was the default for most of human history.
It was only under feudalism that the control over women's bodies began, since sexual control / repression is needed to secure heirs for control of inherited capital. Under collectivist arrangements, unknown fathers are actually beneficial, since then children become those of the entire tribe. Many cultures even had beliefs that children had several fathers, and inherited the best traits of each of them.
Read sex at dawn, and the caliban and the witch for more on this.
Regarding polygamy, there is a study that many people will not like. I do not think it is healthy, and just because something has been done eternally, does not mean it is correct to continue doing. Is that not what breaking down the medieval ideas, that still exist in society as it is, all about?
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/fulfillment-at-any-age/201304/the-long-term-psychological-effects-of-having-multiple-sex
I will try to skim through that literature, thanks for the rec.
Did you not even read that article? First of all, all the participants are from one country, which in itself limits its usefulness. Secondly, there is a huge issue with correlation/causation, is it that people who engage in casual sex might engage in more drinking/drugs?
Most importantly, even if we disregard everything above, it would prove nothing. It just says that people who have lots of sex also drink/use drugs more. It even mentions it in the article itself, the likely reason why women are more affected is due to the societal pressures.
We live in a society that is very hostile to polygamy. Which is probably the reason most people would find negative consequences for engaging in it. This will be the same for any people that are engaging in something considered “weird”.
Why is one country demographic so limiting in this case, when USA's per capita PPP is extremely high? I would instead argue USA's cultural westernisation effect carries over to almost all countries sufficiently for this study to be valuable.
You think alcohol and drug abuse leads to a healthy life? It is a sign of deep internal instability. Why can you not see it comes down to these people hating the concept of committing to a partner, using each other like meat, thus revealing personality issues and internalised horrible ideas of how a society should be?
First of all it is not from the USA but from New Zealand. I am not saying that a study that is done on one country cannot provide some useful insight, but you should be aware of that, especially in studies like this. Societal norms are widely different across the world, so trying to argue for something like this should be done from research across the world.
No, and I never claimed to. Personally, I really don't like both alcohol and drug use. But I certainly wouldn't make such sweeping statements as.
Alcohol use in particular is highly culturally dependent. For example, my country is one of the highest alcohol consumers per capita, but we are a fairly happy country (at least as much as possible in this capitalist hellhole).
Btw, I just looked at the original study that that article is based on. It only concerned itself with cannabis and alcohol, and it didn't differentiate between those two. So again, not really a good source. Overall, I wouldn't base your opinion on something on one random article, especially when it just tries to summarize a paper. Try to at least read the original paper.
Source? I could think of many reasons why. People don't know what they like, so they want to explore both romantically and sexually. People evolve and change over time, and sometimes the partner they though are perfect actually wasn't. Or there are people that don't mind that their partners are having sex with other people. There are so many explanations of why someone would want to have sex with multiple partners, I really don't see why you would come to such a conclusion.
This very first point of the article is the exact opposite of everything you're trying to say here.
I never said it was necessarily depression. Substance abuse and alcohol abuse clearly is shown there. The concept of pair bonding is true to an extent, depending on how loyal people are. People engaging in casual sex are not loyal or committing people.
I forgot to supplement this with another study, a mistake I will correct now.
https://web.archive.org/web/20220930172620/https://www.huffpost.com/entry/more-sexual-partners-unhappy-marriage_n_5698440
And in the same breath, I would recommend this one as well. https://web.archive.org/web/20220124003810/https://ifstudies.org/blog/counterintuitive-trends-in-the-link-between-premarital-sex-and-marital-stability/
The default assumption of those studies you linked, is that monogamous marriage is good, and multiple partners bad. You're linking studies from patriarchal viewpoints which already share your own status-quo assumptions.
Again, monogamy is not the norm of history, and only arose with class society. You haven't done the reading so you haven't learned this yet.
Ignorance is bliss.
I think this has got more to do with sexually frustrated men and women carrying out their dark thoughts, breaking down, healing themselves to become better men and women, ending up becoming more satisfied, since at this point they are over their internal frustration and possibly traumatic issues. Sexual act does serve as a venting outlet.
I am not going to analyze both of these the same way as your first source, but, firstly, the second one is not even a paper, just a bunch of graphs with no methodology etc. Secondly, I would look at where are your sources coming from. Both of these are not scientific institutions and both of these are basically from the same source, which is conservative “think tank”.
If you want someone who explains how these statistics are often misleading, I would look at this video. It basically deals with the exact same arguments from Lauren Southern.
Please don't use random articles as sources for such statements. At least use something that is based on some real research, even though it is often flawed.
This is absolutely repulsive. You realize that the center is about maintaining status quo, yes? The status quo is misogyny.
I do not think the reality is this simple. There is not a speck of doubt that misogyny has existed in society, but men have had their share of inequalities, like being the only demographic group to be conscripted during wars or emergency (includes current Russian SMO), men being the dominant group to be in military or in any dangerous factories or industrial facilities, men never having had an equivalent brotherhood like women have sisterhood throughout the times, men mostly never being given child custody in a broken marriage, and so on.
Moreover, women overwhelmingly prefer traditionalism once they are post 30s, and feminists actively cherrypick traditionalist roles to conform to, despite the general notion being advertised as destroying traditional societal roles. How would you categorise this as, women being okay with misogyny as it benefits them in long term, or women being unfaithful to feminist movement, or feminist movement derailed in some capacity and/or by within itself, or some other explanation?
You really do enjoy making blanket statements about women don't you.
You need some serious deprogramming of your misogynist ideas. Less talking, more reading.
I will process more diverse literature on this subject, but time is going to tell a lot of things. I do not think society is headed down a very bright path, and we are about to see highly turbulent times which will affect both sexes.
I will keep a cool head and consume multiple sources instead of looking it as a way to deprogram, atleast this is what I can conclude. I am in no way righteous, but I think this is a subject where nobody has correct views. Social interaction goes so deep that even the most experienced extroverts get thrown off regularly.
I know you don't want to hear it, as others have approached it and you dismissed them, but brother you are already on the "too conservative" views. You don't realise it any more.
The insidious thing about propaganda is that it doesn't need to be true for someone to start believing it. It just needs to be repeated enough. Being exposed to their "centre-right" bullshit will slowly make you susceptible to it and justify it to yourself. See this story. That's happened to you already, you're repeating these ideas in the same mannerisms all the "redpill" people do and don't even seem to see it.
I do gauge myself on the redpill/blackpill part of the spectrum. And I do need to investigate, but it is not easy. But I think it is worth it.
I will not pretend I just pretended everything I said here, because these are indeed my current beliefs. But I will admit I wanted this engagement in comments, to be able to hear the leftist side of things to learn more, since I have watched enough content from the centrist/conservative entities I mentioned. There is now something more for me to ponder over.
I have a question: why is there no guide or recommendations for these kind of topics, the way I make guides for digital privacy? I do have an answer for it in the form of social engagement being a circus, no matter which camp, but it may not be a sufficient answer. Also, anti-imperialism is a large focus of the communist struggle.
Since you head this instance, I do want to tell it is not that I was salty about the ban, but about being called a misogynist with no dialogue exchange. Although most people will not want to consider other POVs unlike me, or are merely outing themselves by mistake, so I think there needs to be a consideration not just for gauging to ban someone, but to have a dialogue. I created this dialogue, nobody wanted to have it with me. And all of you that are talking to me, are doing so because there is a shared trust considering my year long history here, and because some recognise my tech privacy work. I think gauging people needs a lot more work.
Ping @muad_dibber@lemmygrad.ml and other admins for the last paragraph
It's just marxist feminism. There's tons of different kinds of feminism, there's no one authority on feminism, and we follow marxist feminism here. Lots of books to find and some have been recommended to you. You can read Zetkin, Kollontai, and even Engels' Origins of the Family. Just as much as you can. And talk to women like you've done here and understand what they're saying to you.
The first 5 day ban was given out exactly so you could read up on this and come back with a second chance. I'll talk to the rest of the mod team and we might be inclined to try a third chance, but I can't guarantee anything.
We are, and that's why you received a temp ban the first time when we could have done a permanent ban. I think most of us are just confused that you, who has been with us for over a year and have otherwise made good contributions, would hold these views. If you can't understand the confusion we're feeling as a community then I'm not sure what can come out of any discussion.
Even if you try your best to keep yourself from having views which you consider too far right, as the political overton window shifts more to the right, what ideas do you truly consider to be "centrist" or "centre-right" and not just right wing (if not far right) ideas which have recently become acceptable in mainstream/liberal media?
Also, usage of the terms "redpill" and "blackpill" in these contexts was popularized by the MGTOW (and Anti-SJW) movement. (I was once part of those circles back in 2014 even if I was still very young back then. Once you're in there, it's not very easy to get out; You need a lot of self-reflection to truly escape it. In fact, while my old views were largely toned down over the years by a supportive community back when I was in Junior High School, it took an entire pandemic to get me to reflect and escape, and I was still at risk of returning to some more dangerous views before I finally got into Marxism.)
Self-reflection is not an easy thing, and hopefully it shouldn't be too late for you.