Market != Capitalism. You can have a free market without capitalism, and capitalism without a free market.
The hexbears will attack me for saying that a regulated free market is good and a planned economy is bad. The others will attack me for saying that capitalism is bad and that we should have market socialism instead. But if we can't have that, a capitalist free market has proven much less bad than any planned economy, as long as it's regulated enough that it stays free.
The hexbears will attack me for saying that a regulated free market is good and a planned economy is bad.
Yes, and we are right. The Soviets went from an agrarian backwater to an industrial giant in basically a decade using economic planning, doing all the complex math by hand. The US is a semi-deindustrialized state with access to supercomputers.
The hexbears will attack me for saying that a regulated free market is good and a planned economy is bad.
By 'attack' or do you mean engaging in well sourced arguments against your assertions? And by the way we have plenty of market socialists amount our numbers
I got a lot of good information about the Ukrainian war in another thread, but had to endure being called "A liberal" and hearing assumptions about what I read or believe in... So I support what you say in general, but as an outsider it feels like a mixed bag.
Something to learn is that communists call everyone a liberal. Communists call communists liberal when they don't agree on a single issue. Its not really personal, its just a thing we do.
I was told me another hexbear that essentially you guys don't believe in good faith debate on public forums, hence all the insufferable shitposting and trolling.
Do you understand that a law banning slavery is a piece of regulation? Would you agree that society is more free with that regulation, or less free?
The same logic applies here. The market is free when everyone can freely participate in it. Which means that we have to stop (regulate) those who want to prevent people from participating (i.e. monopolists).
Look man, good on you for understanding that "free markets", the fundamental ideology of capitalism, is antagonistic to people's liberty. Its just wild that you acknowledge that but then go on to insist we should keep doing free markets and capitalism.
Free markets and capitalism will always both ideologically and materially put people into power who disagree with you, people who want to deregulate the market and restrict people's freedom. In order to actually do what you want you must shut those people, the bourgeoisie, out of power. It doesnt matter if you do that through revolutionary violence like the communists or through peaceful democracy like so many Latin american nations. You will be met with violence from the bourgeoisie. Doesnt matter if all you want is an actually regulated free market.
"free markets", the fundamental ideology of capitalism
Wrong already. The fundamental ideology of capitalism is that people with capital reap the profits (through control of means of production, but also means of living). You can shorten that to "rich get richer". But nothing related to markets.
In fact, there were several instances of capitalist economies without a free market. Nazi Germany comes to mind - the government bought weapons, supplies, and everything else, but they were contracted from private corporations controlled only by "desirable" individuals. Other wartime economies apply here too, to a lesser degree - with rationing but still private ownership.
And yes, capitalists are always afraid of a genuinely free market, because they don't want competition.
The fundamental ideology of capitalism is that people with capital reap the profits
That's not an ideology. That's the actual material conditions of capitalism. An ideology exists in people's minds. Its the justification for those material conditions. The capitalist justification is "the freer the markets the freer the people". Sometimes people see through that bullshit and they adopt a new ideology, usually some variant of fascism.
The Nazi's and many fascists will cannibalize sectors of the market that dont get along with the new regime. This isn't a particularly novel observation.
Its like you understand that everything the capitalists told you is bullshit but you still want the fake goal they set up. So you kept the label of "free market" and slapped it on "well regulated market" and are pretending like you've done some clever judo. Everyone will call you a market socialist because that's what you want.
My problem is you're calling a well regulated market a "free market" when thats universally accepted as the total opposite definiton of the phrase. I dont know why you insist on calling market socialism "free markets". You want market socialism for a free society.
Free markets are antithetical to a free society as you pointed out before.
But we shouldn't, Nordic style Social Democracy is still experiencing rises in disparity and reliance on both US military presence as a peacemaker and economic Imperialism to subsidize costs.
if we try our absolute hardest to just "do scandinavia" we will only get one step forward three steps back. you can count on reactionary capitalist claw back of any progress, the only long term solution is to defeat the capitalist class and remove their dictatorship. not beg them to give us tiny scraps from their extravagant buffet.
Market != Capitalism. You can have a free market without capitalism, and capitalism without a free market.
The hexbears will attack me for saying that a regulated free market is good and a planned economy is bad. The others will attack me for saying that capitalism is bad and that we should have market socialism instead. But if we can't have that, a capitalist free market has proven much less bad than any planned economy, as long as it's regulated enough that it stays free.
Yes, and we are right. The Soviets went from an agrarian backwater to an industrial giant in basically a decade using economic planning, doing all the complex math by hand. The US is a semi-deindustrialized state with access to supercomputers.
industrial backwater to space conquering global superpower in 20 years
By 'attack' or do you mean engaging in well sourced arguments against your assertions? And by the way we have plenty of market socialists amount our numbers
I internally cringe every time I hear that word, Lenin is spinning every time these words are close together
Just call it the New Economic Policy and he won't mind lol
I actually don't know, neither happened so far. Let's find out.
I got a lot of good information about the Ukrainian war in another thread, but had to endure being called "A liberal" and hearing assumptions about what I read or believe in... So I support what you say in general, but as an outsider it feels like a mixed bag.
At least, for now.
Something to learn is that communists call everyone a liberal. Communists call communists liberal when they don't agree on a single issue. Its not really personal, its just a thing we do.
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No. They do not.
I was told me another hexbear that essentially you guys don't believe in good faith debate on public forums, hence all the insufferable shitposting and trolling.
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some are good, some are sickos, what can I say we're a mixed bunch of goodies
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Even without the exploitative relation of worker and owner, markets can still have horizontal exploitation between firms.
https://jacobin.com/2023/02/nicholas-vrousalis-exploitation-as-domination-interview-capitalism-labor-justice
Questioning your opinions is not attacking you, get a grip.
Free market is the divine right of capitalism.
What a perfect somersault.
Do you understand that a law banning slavery is a piece of regulation? Would you agree that society is more free with that regulation, or less free?
The same logic applies here. The market is free when everyone can freely participate in it. Which means that we have to stop (regulate) those who want to prevent people from participating (i.e. monopolists).
Look man, good on you for understanding that "free markets", the fundamental ideology of capitalism, is antagonistic to people's liberty. Its just wild that you acknowledge that but then go on to insist we should keep doing free markets and capitalism.
Free markets and capitalism will always both ideologically and materially put people into power who disagree with you, people who want to deregulate the market and restrict people's freedom. In order to actually do what you want you must shut those people, the bourgeoisie, out of power. It doesnt matter if you do that through revolutionary violence like the communists or through peaceful democracy like so many Latin american nations. You will be met with violence from the bourgeoisie. Doesnt matter if all you want is an actually regulated free market.
Wrong already. The fundamental ideology of capitalism is that people with capital reap the profits (through control of means of production, but also means of living). You can shorten that to "rich get richer". But nothing related to markets.
In fact, there were several instances of capitalist economies without a free market. Nazi Germany comes to mind - the government bought weapons, supplies, and everything else, but they were contracted from private corporations controlled only by "desirable" individuals. Other wartime economies apply here too, to a lesser degree - with rationing but still private ownership.
And yes, capitalists are always afraid of a genuinely free market, because they don't want competition.
That's not an ideology. That's the actual material conditions of capitalism. An ideology exists in people's minds. Its the justification for those material conditions. The capitalist justification is "the freer the markets the freer the people". Sometimes people see through that bullshit and they adopt a new ideology, usually some variant of fascism.
The Nazi's and many fascists will cannibalize sectors of the market that dont get along with the new regime. This isn't a particularly novel observation.
Its like you understand that everything the capitalists told you is bullshit but you still want the fake goal they set up. So you kept the label of "free market" and slapped it on "well regulated market" and are pretending like you've done some clever judo. Everyone will call you a market socialist because that's what you want.
Yes.
And despite all your railing against anything resembling a free market, I still don't see any downsides of that.
My problem is you're calling a well regulated market a "free market" when thats universally accepted as the total opposite definiton of the phrase. I dont know why you insist on calling market socialism "free markets". You want market socialism for a free society.
Free markets are antithetical to a free society as you pointed out before.
Since nobody agrees with terminology, we might as well just say: we should do Scandinavia
But we shouldn't, Nordic style Social Democracy is still experiencing rises in disparity and reliance on both US military presence as a peacemaker and economic Imperialism to subsidize costs.
Read "Riding the wave" about how scandinavia relies on imperialism to function.
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if we try our absolute hardest to just "do scandinavia" we will only get one step forward three steps back. you can count on reactionary capitalist claw back of any progress, the only long term solution is to defeat the capitalist class and remove their dictatorship. not beg them to give us tiny scraps from their extravagant buffet.
Social democracy is objectively the moderate wing of fascism
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Do you mean their economy and policies, or their people? In either case, I agree.
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Read the comment that I replied to. It does not say "have", but "do".
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The two cases were "do (meaning 'emulate') their economy and policies" and "do (meaning 'have sex with') their people". No "have" anywhere.
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