I's heard news that BlueSky has been growing a lot as Xitter becomes worse and worse, but why do people seem to prefer BlueSky? This confuses me because BlueSky does not have any federalization technologies built into it, meaning it's just another centralized platform, and thus vulnerable to the same things that make modern social media so horrible.
And so, in the hopes of having a better understanding, I've come here to ask what problems Mastodon has that keep people from migrating to it and what is BlueSky doing so right that it attracts so many people.
This question is directed to those who have used all three platforms, although others are free to put out their own thoughts.
(To be clear, I've never used Xitter, BlueSky or Mastodon. I'm asking specifically so that I don't have to make an account on each to find out by myself.)
Edit:
Edit2: (changed the wording a bit on the last part of point 1 to make my point clearer.)
From reading the comments, here are what seems to be the main reasons:
- Federation is hard
The concept of federation seems to be harder to grasp than tech people expected. As one user pointed out, tech literacy is much less prevalent than tech folk might expect.
On Mastodon, you must pick an instance, for some weird "federation" tech reason, whatever that means; and thanks to that "federation" there are some post you cannot see (due to defederalization). To someone who barely understands what a server is, the complex network of federalization is to much to bare.
BlueSky, on the other hand, is simple: just go to this website, creating an account and Ta Da! Done! No need to understand anything else.
The federalized nature of Mastodon seems to be its biggest flaw.
The unfamiliar and more complex nature of Mastodon's federalization technology seems to be its biggest obstacle towards achieving mass adoption.
- No Algorithm
Mastodon has no algorithm to surface relevant posts, it is just a chronological timeline. Although some prefer this, others don't and would rather have an algorithm serving them good quality post instead of spending 10h+ curating a subscription feed.
- UI and UX
People say that Mastodon (and Lemmy) have HORRIBLE UX, which will surely drive many away from Mastodon. Also, some pointed out that BlueSky's overall design more closely follows that of Twitter, so BlueSky quite literally looks more like pre-Musk Xitter.
"Everyone is joining BlueSky so now i am too i guess lol"
I doubt anybody knows what Mastodon is.
Two things I don't see anybody saying:
- BlueSky is has venture capital funding, giving it greater marketing capabilities. Capitalism isn't won by having a better product, it's won by convincing people they should buy your product.
- Dumb luck. Sometimes things just go viral, and you can try to figure it out in hindsight, but even that's just a guess. If people could accurately predict what was going to be popular, venture capitalists wouldn't have like a 90% miss rate.
federation could be abstracted away, much the same way filesystems are right now
i wish i had that answer
its usually how corpos and ux people seem solve these issues
Because the mastodon evangelists are horrible.
Back when there was any question of what platform to migrate to? Threads and bluesky were "Get an invite and make an account"
Mastodon was people insisting that EVERYONE needed to understand what federation is and the underlying philosophy. When really they should have just said "Sign up for one of these instances. It is like email where it doesn't really matter what provider you have". Countless times I tried to explain to folk on a message board or discord and would say "Just make an account on one of these four or five instances". And, like clockwork, someone would "well ackshually" me and insist that people can't use Mastodon without understanding the fundamental concept of federation and how picking the right instance is important and people can just delete and remake their accounts until they are satisfied.
So when it was time for the big influencers to move? They went to where people were already congregating and where they didn't need to host an educational seminar to tell someone how to make an account.
You have to pick a Mastodon server, before you know anything about anything. The acquisition funnel probably drops 90% of the people checking it out right there.
☝️ This. It's why I put off signing up for Mastodon for a long time, even though I am a big supporter of the Fediverse.
How is picking a Mastodon server different from signing up for email, finding a discord server, signing up to follow channels on youtube, and so on. Somehow people have no problems figuring those things out, but when it comes to Mastodon this is constantly brought up like some insurmountable challenge.
Having to make an informed decision is a barrier to entry. it took me a while because I wanted to make sure I didn't join (and waste time/effort) something I didn't align with.
You don't have to make an informed decision. Signing up for an instance isn't a blood pact. If you find the instance you singed up for isn't to your liking, You can easily migrate your account to another. Meanwhile, if you're worried about something you don't align with, then you don't even get that choice with a centralized platform like Bluesky. For example, I don't align with any of this shit https://toad.social/@davetroy/113476788536250587
You don’t have to make an informed decision.
Correct, but you are still presented with a decision that adds friction to the onboarding experience. I was aware of how Mastodon works and that I could migrate and it took me a while to create an account because I didn't want to "waste my time". I can't imagine a regular user being prompted to "select an instance", decide to go with the first one they see, and registration is either closed or invite only. That's a huge barrier to entry compared to being forced into a single login that is always open.
Meanwhile, if you’re worried about something you don’t align with, then you don’t even get that choice with a centralized platform like Bluesky. For example, I don’t align with any of this shit https://toad.social/@davetroy/113476788536250587
100000% agree with you. I would never create a bluesky account because of that. Unfortunately people aren't as informed and most really just don't care.
What I'm saying is that the amount of friction this adds is completely blown out of proportion. It's just not that hard, and people acting like it's a huge barrier are not being serious. If this was the case email would've never taken off. The fact that we're at the point where it's hard to imagine a regular user going outside a walled corporate garden is really the problem here.
Unfortunately people aren’t as informed and most really just don’t care.
The flip side is that we shouldn't care too much either. Fediverse already has millions of users, and it can just keep growing organically at its own pace.
Email has taken 25 years to get people that comfortable with it, and most folks either go with their ISP email, or one of 3 or 4 providers. Discord, you're already in the tech savvy population.
Yet, the fact remains that people did get comfortable with email, and even the least tech illiterate people are able to use it.
I agree with you, but to be fair, people don't really choose an email provider. They chose gmail, because anything else is disallowed by everyone's anti-spam measures.
That's a recent phenomenon though, and it's effectively been forced on people by the largest email provider making it difficult to use others. My original point was that people didn't find it confusing to register for different mail providers when that was easy to do.
That definitely makes a difference, you can choose which but by default it already selects one so some people won't even change it for convenience, however, that's not a thing on Mastodon so.. Also, a lot of those are mobile users and BlueSky has a lot more Twitter-like familiar UI than Mastodon apps (maybe I'm wrong and if so, point me to which one because there are so many.. there goes another issue and convenience out of the window for people who just don't care about searching and wants something to be done quick - so basically most of Twitter users that still didn't leave it or went to BlueSky)
People expecting a new Twitter when switching to Mastodon were met with weird behavior and nerds who told them the awful search function or weird comment count is working correctly because that's how federation works. Well if that's the case then federation is shit.
Mastodon being federated is absolutely not a flaw. This is how the internet was meant to work in the first place. The fact that people got used to using centralized platforms is an aberration and this needs to be actively fought against.
I should have been more clear. I meant “The federalized nature of Mastodon seems to be its biggest obstacle to it achieving mass adoption”.
The post was about why Mastodon isn’t receiving as many user as BlueSky, or in other words, why it isn’t achieving mass adoption. It was under this context that I chose to use the word “flaw”, as in, flaw towards reaching mass adoption.
I don't think there's a lot of evidence that federation is a significant obstacle in practice. Email is a great example of a federated platform that even the least tech literate people are able to use just fine. It could be argued that Mastodon onboarding process could be smoother, but that's not an inherent problem with it being federated.
In my view, the simplest answer is that BlueSky has much better marketing because it has a ton of money behind it and it's been promoted by Dorsey whom people knew from Twitter. So, when people started abandoning Twitter, they naturally went to the next platform he was promoting.
I'd also argue that there is a big advantage to having smaller communities of users that focus on specific topics of interest and can federate with each other. In my experience, this creates more engaging and friendlier environment than having all the users on the same server. Growth for the sake of growth is largely meaningless.
Sorry for the long, poorly organized response. I just had a bunch of thoughts on this that I wanted to get of my head
The thing I have noticed is that the fediverse does not have an elevator pitch. It is really hard to explain things in simple terms.
Usually, when just simply trying to make an account, people expect to simply go to a website, create account and done, you are in.
While in the fediverse it is like:
- First select an instance!
And the user is like:
- What is "instance"...?
And them they get lectured for 10+ minutes over some tech concepts that look alien to them.
- This raises the question: "Why is [fediverse platform] like this? Why so complicated? Why can't it just be like every other platform? Go to site, log in. Simple. What's that all "Federation" for?"
And now they will have to receive another 10+ minute long lecture on the flaws of the centralized social media.
20+ minutes worth of lecture, just so they can use a social media platform. If they hear they whole lecture, and understand it, they will probably give the fediverse a try, but if they don't because they got overwhelmed with information from your lectures they won't even try.
And all of this and I still haven't explained a single feature of the platform itself.
We need to come up with an elevator pitch that gives people some clue of what federation is.
I know what some might be thinking: "Why do they need to know what federation is?" Well yes, I could just say, go to [big Mastodon instance here] and create an account. Cool, they are using Mastodon.
But inevitably, this will happen: Someone will send them a link to a Mastodon post. They click it, but the link they were send was on another instance as such they are logged out. Thing is, they don't know what federation is and most instances have nearly indistinguishably UI, as thus the user doesn't notice they are on a completely different site. "Strange", they think, "I could have sworn I was logged in". Then they try to log in on the other instance... can't and get confused and maybe even panic. "Did I just lose my account?". And now they come to me for tech support (because I was the one who introduced them to mastodon), and I end up having to explain federation anyways.
Now, with that being said, Email is still an example of a federated platform with mass adoption, and we should use it as an example when explaining the fediverse. But I would like to stress the following point: most instances have nearly indistinguishably UI, as thus the user doesn't notice they are on a completely different site. Go different Email instances and they look distinct. Go to gmail.com and outlook.com and they look distinct enough so that people can intuitively understand that, although they are both email services, their Gmail account is not going to let them log into Outlook.
Mastodon instances on the other hand? They just brand themselves as "Mastodon" and that's about it. They look identical! Just LOOK:
Show
Show
Show
No wonder people get confused. The big instances NEED to look distinct for this to work. Otherwise, the federation thing will be confusing.
Now that I'm writing this I'm realizing that this seems to be an UI problem: The instances look to similar to be immediately recognizable as distinct and that's confusing. Therefore we should work towards ensuring that instance, or at least the big ones, have a distinct appearance, their own "brand", so they can be seen as distinct so that the example scenario I showed earlier doesn't happen.
Or maybe I'm over-complicating things... Maybe it's as easy as: "It kinda works like email. On email, you can go to a number of different sites, like gmail and outlook and send mail to anyone. Mastodon is also like that, there are many websites, each one with their own rules and mod teams. You can join any of them and see post from people from the other sites."
But even this explanation has a problem: It does not explain de-federation. If they end up trying to follow someone who is on an instance their main instance as de-federated, they won't be able to find them and they won't know why. Most are not familiar with email de-federation as most only ever need to interact with the big instances which all federate with each other.
I guess my problem is that, by simplifying things so that non-tech people can understand, they will end up running into the intricacies of federation and not know what to do.
Also, if people don't understand federation, we will end up with a Gmail situation: Everybody is on the same one instance. Understanding the need for this separation of Mastodon into different instances can be hard. If we simply tell people to go to the big instance, that's what they will do. And then we end up with Gmail.
Federation and separation into smaller communities is a good thing, but it can hard to explain how and why.
Sure, but all of this basically comes down to poor marketing. It's not an inherent problem with the technology or with the concept of federation.
It shouldn't be surprising either given that Mastodon is a niche platform developed largely as a volunteer effort. The reason people advocating Mastodon tend to focus on stuff like on the flaws of the centralized social media is because that's what matters to them. We see pretty much the same thing happening with Linux, and many other open source projects.
This is the point I was making above, BlueSky has a professional marketing team that understands how to sell their product to the general public. That's the main reason BlueSky is gaining users at a faster rate.
Regarding the Gmail problem, it's true that we could end up with one major instance most people are on. I don't see that as a huge issue in practice since you can still choose use different instances. That's a fundamentally better situation to be in.
For example, I don't use Gmail and I run my own personal Mastodon instance using masto.host, this doesn't stop me communicating with people on Gmail or major Mastodon instances like mastodon.social.
For example, I don’t use Gmail and I run my own personal Mastodon instance using masto.host, this doesn’t stop me communicating with people on Gmail or major Mastodon instances like mastodon.social.
I mentioned Gmail because, when a single instances holds something like 95% of the users, that gives them a lot of power. If Gmail decided to de-federate from you... you are kinda screwed. That's my concern. Although, as you said, that is still better than a fully centralized platform.
Sure, if a big instance started to dominate the fediverse it would be a form of centralization. However, the protocol being designed with federation in mind makes it much easier for people to migrate from that instance if it becomes a bad actor.
Going back to the original point though, I do think that fediverse could be marketed better in a way that would appeal to more people. Since we agree that federation is a desirable feature, the focus should be on figuring out how to explain it to people in a sensible way.
the focus should be on figuring out how to explain it to people in a sensible way.
And that is the thing I have been struggling with and if the major instances looked visually distinct it would make it easier to not confuse them. But yeah, the fediverse has a marketing problem. We need to get people with marketing skills involved.
Bluesky is way more approachable than Mastodon. Most people don't want to have to learn what an instance is.
.....BlueSky does not have any federalization technologies built into it, meaning it's just another centralized platform, and thus vulnerable to the same things that make modern social media so horrible.
Ask your average social media user what any of that means and you'll get blank stares.
Bluesky is more like Twitter, and Twitter users prefer Twitter to Mastodon
It's lack of marketing since it is not a business, and people conflating useful optional features with confusing usage.
Everyone I know moved to bluesky, after which bluesky basically immediately sold out to crypto people. I brought up the idea of "hey, this is why I think mastodon is a lot better, because it's impossible for it to sell out entirely", to which one person lost their fucking shit and responded stating that I was "fear mongering".
This person also said they didn't care if a business owned all their data and controlled their entire life because "all their data is owned already anyway".
This same person also said that after the recent US election they "spent the night throwing up until they were dry heaving and crying".
Why they claim to not care about their life being controlled by corporate entities, but claim to care so hard about their life being controlled by a government that they say they have a physical reaction to it is a subject I haven't broached because I'm sure they wouldn't be able to see their hypocrisy if they pointed the James Webb telescope at themselves.
In a nut shell, many people are incredibly stupid and not at all interested in their best interests unless the news tells them which interests they should care about.
basically immediately sold out to crypto people.
Wait what? I know very little about BlueSky and even less about the people behind it, so I didn't know that. Could you send me a link to more info?
https://bsky.social/about/blog/10-24-2024-series-a
They announced a series A in which they stated they are implementing paid features through a subscription model and took 15 million dollars from Blockchain Capital.
They say in this statement they won't "Hyper Financialize" the platform, which is corporate doublespeak for "We are now monetizing this platform".
The additions to their board are people who come from crypto/NFT companies.
As a result, the clock is now ticking on Bluesky and its destruction is inevitable due to the laws of capitalism.
Most people don't know much, and don't care that they don't know much. Half of US adults can't read at a 6th grade level. They don't care about and probably do not understand complex topics.
That's it. They just want cat gifs, and that's the end of the thought.
I knew someone who was smart and successful and politically aware. She didn't care about any of this. She was tired from work and just wanted the familiar ease or twitter. Trying to figure out which server to sign up for and finding content was too much work.
A lot of people have executive dysfunction. Making a choice is hard.
A lot of people are offput by having to choose a server before creating an account. If that could be automated somehow I think Mastodon would be more popular.
Bluesky is more similar to Twitter and has what most people were used to, like an algorithm, quote tweets, etc I found it extremely boring, but tbh it's a more polished experience. One of my biggest annoyances with Mastodon is how threads and replies look weird. Sometimes I see the reply to a post before I see the post, especially in the "lists" view. Also not having an algorithm is both good and bad. It's great because it's organic, but it also means many posts get buried and it's dependent on the time. As someone not living in the US and Europe, it's tricky because sometimes you'll post something when most people are asleep and no one will see it. I ultimately love Mastodon more because of the openness and the federation. But most people will find Bluesky more approachable
As a matter of fact, Bluesky originally was supposed to become Twitter's back end, but it was spun off when Elon took over. Jack Dorsey left and is now promoting nostr and X.
