cross-posted from: https://lemmy.crimedad.work/post/12162

Why? Because apparently they need some more incentive to keep units occupied. Also, even though a property might be vacant, there's still imputed rental income there. Its owner is just receiving it in the form of enjoying the unit for himself instead of receiving an actual rent check from a tenant. That imputed rent ought to be taxed like any other income.

  • ATQ@lemm.ee
    ·
    1 year ago

    They pay for it to be built. Unless you think the workers should work for free and not receive any benefit from their labor. Does hexbear know you feel this way? 🤣

      • ATQ@lemm.ee
        ·
        1 year ago

        Landlords pay up front (directly or via a loan, which the renters presumably cannot get) and assume the risk of vacancies and repairs. If landlords ceased to exist, how do you propose new housing stock be created? Should the government be your landlord?

        • Olgratin_Magmatoe@startrek.website
          ·
          edit-2
          1 year ago

          Landlords pay up front (directly or via a loan, which the renters presumably cannot get) and assume the risk of vacancies and repairs.

          And then they get bailed out by the government when their risk blows up.

          https://www.wsj.com/articles/landlords-were-never-meant-to-get-bailout-funds-many-got-it-anyway-11590494400

          https://www.consumerfinance.gov/about-us/blog/four-reasons-landlords-should-take-advantage-federal-rental-assistance/

          And they have little to no risk in the first place because the market has such high demand that they can pretty much instantly fill vacancies, and they barely do repairs if at all. And at least where I live, renters are required to have/pay for renters insurance which further drives down the landlord's risk. And on top of all that, they have security deposits to lower their risk even further. They don't take on any meaningful risk.

          If landlords ceased to exist, how do you propose new housing stock be created? Should the government be your landlord?

          Government investment into housing development (which then turn into market rate housing/co-ops), zoning fixes, and a LVT is the solution. The builders get paid, home ownership becomes affordable, the risks are dealt with, and renters aren't being priced gouged. It would also do wonders to help fix the homelessness crisis.

          And none of it needs the government to own your home.

          • ATQ@lemm.ee
            ·
            1 year ago

            Investment into housing development, zoning fixes, market rate housing, co-ops, and a LVT is the solution.

            You can’t be serious? Let’s review.

            Investment into housing development

            By who..? Come on, be honest, who do you think is going to do this 🤣

            zoning fixes

            That allow who to build more housing?

            market rate housing

            Is literally what the West has right now.

            Co-Ops

            We have these now.

            and a LVT

            This is a fine step. Most states have property taxes now that include the land that a rental sits on.

            If you can’t pay for your own housing, your choices are either for the government to pay for it, or for the private sector to pay for it. In either event the entity that owns your house, that isn’t you, is your landlord. If you can’t pay for your own housing, and you don’t want the private sector or the government to provide it for you, then you’re homeless.

            • Olgratin_Magmatoe@startrek.website
              ·
              1 year ago

              By who…? Come on, be honest

              It was implied, but I later edited my comment, the government should do so. We have a massive housing crisis on our hands and there needs to be a solution. The government is so bloated that there is easily already the money somewhere to divert to something actually worthwhile.

              That allow who to build more housing?

              Private developers, individual citizens, the government itself, etc. Anybody and everybody with a willingness to build a house should be able to do so without dealing with the ridiculous zoning laws we have now.

              Is literally what the West has right now.

              We have these now.

              We have market-rate housing and co-ops at such a low rate. We need a massive increase in quantity. The private sector won't do this because there is no profit motive, so it largely has to be the government who is building these. But once their built it shouldn't be the government who owns it, it should be the co-ops, market-rate housing orgs, or literally individual citizens who own the housing,

              Most states have property taxes now that include the land that a rental sits on.

              I don't want property taxes. Those need to be removed along with all other types of taxation. The only valid type of taxation should be land value tax, and a carbon emission tax. A property tax punishes a land owner for developing their land and using it more efficiently. A land value tax on the other hand incentivizes more effective use. It's a massive topic and a massive difference. If you want to learn more I would recommend looking into georgism.

              In either event the entity that owns your house, that isn’t you, is your landlord.

              I disagree with your definition.

              • commiewithoutorgans [he/him, comrade/them]
                ·
                1 year ago

                Ah God, I was wondering (cheering for) when you'd make the turn to "politically only possible with a socialist government" or something along those lines, but now I see you're one of the famed georgists. First I've seen in the wild!

                • Olgratin_Magmatoe@startrek.website
                  ·
                  edit-2
                  1 year ago

                  I see you’re one of the famed georgists. First I’ve seen in the wild!

                  If you have a criticism of georgism I'd love to hear it, because so far I've heard basically none. And I don't think I would go quite so far as to call myself a georgist. It's only something I learned about relatively recently, but the more I learn about it the better it sounds than the current dog shit we are dealing with that we somehow call a tax system. Is georgism perfect? Almost certainly not, but it's a massive step in the right direction.

                  you’d make the turn to “politically only possible with a socialist government”

                  You are correct in that the solution to the housing crisis is only possible with a socialist government. Socialism and georgism are not mutually exclusive.

                  • commiewithoutorgans [he/him, comrade/them]
                    ·
                    1 year ago

                    Land is in common ownership + tax based on land distribution. What does this do? Georgism is only relevant to capitalism and is only a minor improvement to efficiency and distribution that will also just become calculated into costs within the C of the C+V equation from marx. It would only have a minor impact based on the size of your house+yard, nothing more. It's in no way progressing us towards socialism. It could be useful for a NEP/current China situation of broadly capitalist relations controlled by a socialist state, I guess, and I'm open to that tax dominating, though it doesn't really consider (or tries to theoretically consider but won't ever be able to) imperialism/unequal exchange and extraction in other lands where the raw product is immediately exported to a country that will refine it.

              • ATQ@lemm.ee
                ·
                1 year ago

                If you want to argue that it is a valid use of the state to produce low cost housing then this is an interesting conversation. But much of the rest of your response is nonsense. For instance -

                I don't want property taxes. Those need to be removed along with all other types of taxation. The only valid type of taxation should be land value tax, and a carbon emission tax.

                You’re going to fund all the social programs of a modern government via, essentially, no taxes? Come on. If you want the government to provide a robust social safety net, including housing, you’ll be looking at Nordics level taxation.

                I disagree with your definition.

                You can be wrong if you want to be.

                • Olgratin_Magmatoe@startrek.website
                  ·
                  edit-2
                  1 year ago

                  You’re going to fund all the social programs of a modern government via, essentially, no taxes?

                  No, it would be funded through land value and carbon taxes. Those two tax types should be the only valid form of taxation. We should still have enough tax to pay for it (after we ditch the bloat our government has. Example).

                  If you want the government to provide a robust social safety net, including housing, you’ll be looking at Nordics level taxation.

                  People always complain about such a system but they actually have healthcare, so seems like a moot point to me.

                  You can be wrong if you want to be.

                  First off, there's no need to be a dick about it. Second, that definition says person, whereas you said entity.

                  • "In either event the entity that owns your house, that isn’t you, is your landlord."

                  • "a person who rents land, a building, or an apartment to a tenant."

        • 420blazeit69 [he/him]
          ·
          1 year ago

          Landlords pay up front (directly or via a loan

          You're describing a developer. Most landlords aren't developers.

          And yes, the government should take on the role of developing residential properties and ensuring everyone has access to them. Housing is not a commodity, it's a basic human need.

          • came_apart_at_Kmart [he/him, comrade/them]
            ·
            1 year ago

            not to mention, many big developers aren't paying cash to construct housing. they get a loan or establish a line of credit with or brokered via investors/banks/funds. the first rule of doing anything under capitalism is to use somebody else's money to do it, and all those loans drawing on lines of credit ultimately leads back to the central bank anyway.

            it's a massive shell game to obscure the fact that workers do all the work to create the products and services and then have to pay their shitty wages right back to access the very things they create, just so maybe 2-3 million megarich assholes can roll around in piles of money and make an income for doing literally nothing.

            landlords are among the most nakedly parasitic sectors of society, and even then we still get bootlicking bozos pretending they "provide" housing or are somehow responsible for the community infrastructure that makes living in the place where the house exists desirable.

      • ATQ@lemm.ee
        ·
        1 year ago

        Oh, so you just want the state to be your landlord? Enjoy your cinderblock gulag.

          • bagend
            ·
            edit-2
            1 year ago

            deleted by creator

          • ATQ@lemm.ee
            ·
            1 year ago

            You can rent from someone else. That’s actually easier than moving cities, states, or countries.

              • ATQ@lemm.ee
                ·
                edit-2
                1 year ago

                If you want to argue that the government should develop low cost housing, that’s an interesting discussion. In general, “supply” regardless of how it’s created, is the answer to high housing prices. I do fear that you’ll be dissatisfied with the quality of that government housing.

                • The_Jewish_Cuban [he/him]
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  No it's not. That's why you have houses and apartments for hypothetical millionaires going empty because no one can actually afford them. As long as homes and real estate have speculative value there is no guarantee that "supply" will positively affect prices or affect them enough to provide housing for everyone.

                  The simple fact that there are more empty homes and apartments than there are homeless people disproves your premise.

              • Honytawk@lemmy.zip
                ·
                1 year ago

                Yes, Socialism has home ownership.

                The only thing that is state affiliated more than in Capitalism is the mean of production (businesses) being owned by the state. Everything else is still owned by individuals.

                You are thinking of Communism.

            • ghost_of_faso2@lemmygrad.ml
              ·
              1 year ago

              In the west all of your children have the freedom to grow up as homeless crack heads living in tent cities, how inspiring.

            • panopticon [comrade/them]
              ·
              1 year ago

              them up and force them to fight for our Moscovi overlords that are just a itsy-bitsy more equal than the rest of u

              Nice whataboutism you tankie! Centrist liberal tankie!!!

              Western countries already provide resources for our less fortunate friends and neighbors

              Lol. Lmao even

              • ATQ@lemm.ee
                ·
                1 year ago

                It’s true. That’s why our homelessness incidence are less than 10% of yours. Maybe that’s why you’re trying to drive yours down by conscripting your homeless and forcing them into “former glory” wars?

                • captcha [any]
                  ·
                  1 year ago
                  1. Do you just assume that everyone who disagrees with you is a Russian?
                  2. Did you forget Russia hasn't been communist for over three decades?
        • UlyssesT
          ·
          edit-2
          2 months ago

          deleted by creator

        • uralsolo
          ·
          edit-2
          1 year ago

          deleted by creator

        • Nicklybear [she/her]
          ·
          1 year ago

          As someone who has been homeless, I would MUCH rather live my entire life in a "cinderblock gulag" then spend even a second homeless. So, yes, if we ever were to get such buildings provided to us from the government, I would greatly enjoy them.

        • Catradora_Stalinism [she/her, comrade/them]
          ·
          1 year ago

          sis, I would love living in a small apartment complex where everything is either five minutes away or easily accessed by public transportation

          I would love being in an environment that promotes a collective spirit where people spend more time outside than inside

          I would love having housing be 4% AT MOST of my monthly paycheck

          but we gotta have idiots with trillions because they deserve to hang us out to dry, is that it?

    • silent_water [she/her]
      ·
      edit-2
      1 year ago

      of course they do. we actually understand that production doesn't require middle men. we're communists, fool.

    • BurgerPunk [he/him, comrade/them]
      ·
      edit-2
      1 year ago

      No they usually don't pay for anything to be built. Even if they did, they just pay for it with other peoples labor (their renters)