I escaped the Reddit regime a little while ago. I consider myself a marxist-leninist-MZT. Vegetarian and vegan for a few years. I've a lot of thoughts on how marxism and veganism are connected. Never wrote them down. I'd like to start smth like a club for marxist vegans to develop our own proletarian theory. Most vegan theory I found is either openly bourgeois (Francione is a literal TERF) or revisionist (anti-China, anarchist, libertarian). How about fixing this?
this is genuinely what toddlers sound like. "i don't like broccoli, i want chicken nuggets!"
Yeah I hate broccoli, but this'll shock you, I never eat chicken nuggets either, I love it classically cooked/roasted, particularly wings and legs. But just because I love potatoes, watermelon, oranges, grapes and peach doesn't mean that I love every single plant and that my diet has to consist exclusively on it.
It could go the other way: ''I want to eat only plants and force it upon others just because I dislike meat and can't comprehend the fact that human beings are omnivorous and ate meat since we came to existence''.
I'd recommend you to explain this stuff to a Polar or Grizzly Bear... Actually don't, bad idea, try it with Raccoons and Crows instead for starters and see how it goes.
no one lacks comprehension of the fact that humans have historically eaten meat. we're just making the (obvious, factual) claim that you don't require it to survive in any capacity. your body won't shut down without it. i'm not particularly interested in how you like your corpses cooked, at this point i'm alternately making fun of your childlike palate and making it clear that your claim that humans "need" to eat dead animals is goofy as fuck and you should be embarrassed about saying something so ignorant.
You don't, but it's not healthy(I'm talking about not eating even fish or milk) and humans ALWAYS historically had balanced diet of both since you simply can't get something which is exclusive to meat from a plant, includes vitamins, calcium etc. You should be embarrassed just like the others like you who force this shit onto people and act like you have some high ground, it's a choice, plain and simple. There's a lot of things to be angry about in the world and natural eating diets, omnivores and carnivores aren't one of them.
And don't eat Venus Flytrap by any chance, it's carnivorous.
You should stop embarrassing yourself as you have clearly no idea about what you're talking about.
It is healthy and sustainable. There is multiple meta-studies confirming it and many gouvernemental associations of dietetics and nutritions say so, here is one such example.
You are the one forcing your "lifestyle" on sentient beings just because you enjoy it. Stop for 2 minutes and think what your behavior actually entails and what this means for your moral system.
Its clear you have no idea about what you're talking about when you say that calcium is something you can only find in sufficient quantities in animal products. Stop typing like a toddler and go educate yourself.
Or do you seriously hold the position that milk from another mammal is necessary to the survival of humans despite the vast majority of them being intolerant to it ?
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10027313/
I never saw anyone forcing diets onto people more than vegans, not even ultra religious people who feast(because even Jesus said to them that humans can eat everything), I knew few vegetarians who never even mentioned this stuff on regular basis to people, because that wasn't their entire personality and I respect it. But vegans specifically do, stealing people's chickens, letting them in wild(which results in them getting eaten by fox immediately), vandalizing, lecturing people, moralizing, annoying people en masse, barging into farms on villages and destroying people's jobs which is how they make a living etc, no one does this shit.
No one is forcing you to eat meat, or fish, or eggs, or even milk for that matter, you're the ones who force this shit and sound EXACTLY like this guy:
I never thought that there would be a situation where I would get vegan lecturing on Lemmy of all places.
I do, I understand basic biology and the fact that humans are OMNIVORES, and milk is healthy, what even is the problem with fucking MILK? You don't even have to kill and cook anything to get it. You're not going to change the food chain and diet of an entire species lasting tens of thousands to millions of years by doing this.
If you ever come or pass in Balkans, I'm legitimately asking you to try this here.
lmao I’ve visited the balkans many times, namely Bosnia and Croatia and never had any issues with being a vegan. You do realize there are vegans in the balkans right? Most people I met there were way more understanding of it than you seem to be, but I guess you think your region would beat up people for disagreeing. Sorry to disappoint you but your region is better than you.
All you do is weak appeals to nature and you even tried to justify your shitty view by invoking Jesus lmao.
You’re the one coming into a post specifically asking about how vegan communists could get together and antagonizing people, who is the one stirring shit up? I guess for you the only people that are nice are the people that don’t speak up about things they believe in. Are you a fucking centrist lib? "The only leftists I like are the ones that shut up about it" is a lib take comrade.
To educate you on milk as you apparently have never thought about how milk is produced, you do realize that mammals only produce milk when they have a baby right? Here’s how milk is produced in our society:
Killing is most of the process of producing milk. If you gave me the choice between being a dairy cow or a meat cow, I’d choose being a meat cow anyday of the week as at least the suffering would be lessened.
Well you certainly met some polite people and didn't bother them like you do it online, because here where I live specifically, this shit is not tolerated, of course you can be, it's your choice and no one would like beat you up because of it if you thought that, but to start to moralize and constantly bother other people with this is not allowed. You're definitely polite irl and don't act like those lunatics who barge into restaurants, harass people and steal their animals. There are vegans here but they are in minority as they are everywhere else.
I just mentioned ultra religious people because they can be some of the most annoying people imaginable, yet even they don't do this and don't come on this level. I didn't mention to appeal to anything, just to show how far vegans can go when they surpass even them.
This is the general consensus you'll get here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/serbia/comments/u0ekxo/what_do_serbians_think_about_vegetarianism/
I just said that I don't get it, I literally never said that I would like to do it. But most vegans seem to assume that all people want to start to eat only grass so badly and automatically assumed that I wanted it to when I never said that. You're not going to transform the food chain and diet of entire human race just because you dislike meat, we're omnivores and if you like taking pills or whatnot later in life because of teeth problems, I'm not the one to judge. Go against slaughterhouses and fast food companies which are inhumane and are consequences of capitalism, but leave normal people and farmers tf alone.
Guess what, my grandparents didn't send animals to slaughterhouses and didn't participate in it, they were just normal farmers as are most people from villages here and my uncle is a hunter, not a poacher who kills hundreds of members of near extinct species. If you cared so much about nature you'd know that plants are also living things, yet you eat them? Wait, even some plants are carnivorous.
And of course, a certain Austrian painter was a vegan later in his life, is he by any chance better than 99% of human population which eats meat just because of it? So if you're going to equate eating a fish or drinking milk with blowing up a building full of innocent civilians, don't do it with other people. Communism is a political ideology and being vegan is dietary choice, a communist shouldn't give a shit if someone is vegan/vegetarian or not and certainly not try to brainwash people into it.
I don't really care to step into this back and forth as a whole, but Hitler wasn't vegan or vegetarian. He just liked dogs. That was a lie made up by Goebbels to make him seem more sympathetic and his private chefs admit to making meat for him regularly.
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Vegans stealing chickens and letting them in the wild where they cannot survive because they were born in captivity? Well, there are utopian animal rights activists – some eco-anarchists maybe – who happen to be vegan, who also do this kind of stuff. Veganism itself isn't the problem here, but what it's attached to. Please don't roll the blame on vegans in general, we're a diverse bunch.
The very moment a vegan – or even just a plant-based person – outs themself they get asked questions which they've encountered way too often such as what you've presented here and pushed to being "normal" because humans "need" animal products. Literal forcing "you can take the meat out from the soup" and not offering reasonable plant-based food happens too especially to those who aren't in charge of the contents of their plate. I don't expect you to directly relate or understand the frustration it creates, but perhaps you can relate via some other connection? Surely vegans can be pushing back and forceful too, and many are like this especially in online spaces. I wouldn't say you've been forced here to become a vegan like vegans are pressured to become "normal", but rather your justifications for consuming animal products are questioned. My dear IRL comrade isn't a vegan and I've never pushed him to become one. However, I'll never let him get away with a half-baked piss poor justification, and that is a comradely thing to do. This is how I see this situation too.
In my long gone days of being a newbie vegetarian, I remember ridiculing some vegan for stating that "milk is murder". What a fool, right? Years later before I became a vegan I realised the fool had been me for not understanding dairy industry. There is no cows' milk without pregnancy and the milk is produced for calves. This means that cows must beremovedd to produce milk and their calf taken away from them. Most calves are killed for meat shortly after their birth. So even if you don't directly kill for milk, the calf here is a "by product" which cannot be kept around since it'd need that milk which is now taken from it for human consumption. This is how dairy industry operates and it surely requires killing calves and eventually their mothers when their bodies give up. Humans are not baby cows and milk must be processed before it's safe for human consumption. The whole idea that milk somehow is necessary for humans is dairy industry propaganda. For example in Finland there literally are propaganda posters in schools, so from a very young age people are brainwashed to believe that milk is essential for humans. And surely one kind of milk is essential: human mother's milk for human babies.
Then there is obviously the dairy farmer who isn't paid enough by the industry and relies on state subsidies. Prices are artificially kept low and dairy products keep their dominant position. Dairy industry not only exploits the cows, but also the farmer.
I don't think food chain could be changed by an insignificant population of vegans. We've gone from simple medieval farming of animals to industrialisation and commodification under capitalism. The very same capitalism that is fuelling climate change where animal agriculture plays a big role. What actually would be forcing the change is economy and climate change. This doesn't mean everyone will be vegan, but perhaps vast majority will eventually be once animal agriculture is phased out.
One thing that bothers me with topics about veganism is how they mainly circle around food and moral questions related to it. It'd be refreshing to see discussions that go beyond this who eats what and is it right or wrong.
That certainly happens a lot, idk if they're anarchists specifically but vegans yes, there are many cases of barging into people's farms, letting chickens out, stealing chickens, barging into restaurants etc, just look it up, I know of a particular case of British vegan tourist trying to steal chickens in Morocco.
I'm not trying to ''justify'' anything because there isn't anything to justify in the first place and I don't have any problem with the fact that humans are omnivores and the natural food chain. I don't eat apes(which would be close to cannibalism), dogs, cats, reptiles, endangered species, etc and I condemn it as I do with poaching etc, I'm just a normal human eating livestock and fish which humans did since we came to be as we're well designed to be and it's nutritious for us, and milk is indeed healthy.
Yes, that's the problem of capitalism, not normal people, besides climate change, there's slaughterhouses, fast food companies etc, and that's where your focus should be, and not like you said, trying to change natural food chain, majority won't change even when these problems were dealt because the natural diet doesn't have anything to do with that, we were the same before it and will be same after it, unless you start cloning meat, we'll eat livestock and fish forever.
The right thing is to attack capitalistic industry, not regular people who don't do anything wrong.
How does this logic extrapolate to something the BDS campaign? Should we not pressure regularly people to boycott consumer products from companies that invest money in Israeli settler colonialism?
The issue you might be missing is that without capitalist agriculture and fishing, all those staple foods you're talking about will become much less available. You seem to be claiming that you need animal products at every meal. That is not an anti-capitalist position.
People will still be able to have some meat, fish, milk, etc, but not nearly to the extent that they do now. There will not be enough to consume it at every meal. That was the case before industrial capitalist farming, too. Maybe meat can be grown in labs but for now that's science fiction.
Industrial farming is a huge contributor to climate change and the sheer amount of land needed to produce so much meat and dairy is unsustainable. There is no future for humans if they continue to rely on animal products to the extent they currently do.
Arguments about the necessity of regularly eating meat, fish, eggs, and milk due to humans being omnivores fall flat. There will be some availability but the end of capitalism ultimately means your diet must become substantially vegan.
If humans can't survive that because they have traditionally eaten meat, then humans can't survive. The planet will become uninhabitable because of it.
This does not mean that everyone must become vegan. It does mean that most people will have to substantially alter their relationship to animal products.
System change will mean that diet is no longer an individual choice in the way that it is today so you don't have to worry about that.