During the last few days I noticed a few people demanding that every Ukrainian refugee in Germany who is of able bodied age should be forced back to Ukraine to either fight on the front or work in ammunition factories or hospitals. As far as I can tell no major publication or politician has echoed this sentiment yet. I hope that will stay this way. But the sheer audacity with which these people demanded strangers to be sent to their death is astounding. "Fighting to the last Ukrainian" really is something they want and it sickens me.
I live in Ukraine, so as you can imagine, liberals here have long since gone full fash. The situation here is a really good illustration for the old "scratch a liberal" adage: a lot of people have been more than scratched, and in response they've went absolutely rabid.
Stay as safe as you can, is there any possibility you could get out? For the obviously material safety reasons, but also some of the stories about how the post-war economy is likely to go is extremely concerning.
I realise not everybody can just drop what they are doing and gtfo, so I hope you stay as safe as possible regardless.
I'll be getting out of this hellhole as soon as the borders are open. As much as it saddens me to see my country reduced to this, I'm not going to stick around and try fixing it. I've come to hate this place with a burning passion.
Is it even safe for you to stay there?
Even leaving the whole risk of a war zone, it feels like a total lost cause when it comes to any politics.
It isn't safe, but leaving is impossible atm, the borders are closed for men. Unless, of course, you're a filthy rich removed, which I'm not.
But yes, it's a lost cause. I'm leaving as soon as I can, fuck this country.
Forget the liberals, the biggest Dutch left wing party has announced they will send more money to NATO and they are getting applauded for it
Evil genocidal Putin will conquer all of Europe if we don't and that's why we need to assign an anticommunist as left wing leader who will give money to an anticommunist military force.
Unfortunately yes. The F16s that The Netherlands send 'musr have been send much sooner' as well, and Russia needs to be destroyed. It's basically on that level with many 'leftists'.
Just piggybacking to reiterate the sad truth of this comment, the Dutch have lost their effing minds and IMO are even more self-righteous about "Muh-kraine" than the USAmericans. Both in regards to the politicians and also majority of the people I've talked with about it. It's fucked.
Seems to me the endless onslaught of propaganda during Covid broke so many people's brains to the extent that they are seeking out more propaganda because they literally don't want to think for themselves at all. Hell I'd be surprised if many people on Lemmygrad continued to "follow the science" on Covid since Ukraine started as results from that worldwide experiement are finally starting to come out (instead of just the number models). shrug
Hell I’d be surprised if many people on Lemmygrad continued to “follow the science” on Covid since Ukraine started as results from that worldwide experiement are finally starting to come out (instead of just the number models). shrug
Not sure what you mean by this
Japan, there was an initial outpouring of support, we never like to be behind on the latest Cause. There were a few marches and the like, but those seemed to be largely foreigners and the foreigner hanger-ons, I know very few people personally who participated.
A lot of that sentiment has kind of burned out from what I have seen. A lot of people I have talked to are, understandably, sad about the loss of life but see immediate peace talks as the best way to bring that about.
People were very against NATO's attempts to built an office here (which thankfully got stopped), and were worried we would be used as a Ukraine vs China if the situation in Taiwan escalated. It's the most vocal I have seen people protest for a while, we tend to be very politically apathetic.
Sanctions on Russia have also hurt us immeasurably, we are obviously located very close to them and rely on Russian trade in several sectors. Sanctions plus a general move away from nuclear power has resulted in a 50-60% increase in electricity bills this summer across the country. We always have people, mostly the elderly, die every year from heatstroke and there is an expectation that this summer is going to end up even worse than usual. Not to mention the yen has absolutely tanked, which reduces our buying power even more.
Basically since people here have been affected, at least economically, a lot of the popular support has waned.
Basically since people here have been affected, at least economically, a lot of the popular support has waned.
Interesting. Here in Germany we can also feel the sanctions quite a lot. Electrical bills also went up and big concerns announced that they would leave Germany and outsource their production to somewhere else. So a lot of people are afraid they could end up jobless in a while. And yet support for Ukraine is not going down. I think it just makes people more bloodthirsty.
We have had our arguments over territory, but by and large the average person here have never had a very anti-Russian point of view to begin with. It was a pretty popular language to study for business reasons, because we do so much trade with them. We also don't have much of a connection to Ukraine.
I think a lot of the Japanese opposition was more a "war is bad" point of view, as opposed to "russia is evil". Which results in people just wanting a resolution as soon as possible. On the other hand there's not a good understanding of the circumstances that caused the war, and the news doesn't really report on it. So there are still plenty of people who think Putin woke up one one day and decided to invade for no real reason. They just would still prefer the killing stops now.
Could it be that people in Germany have the idea that if evil Putin is defeated, everything will just return to normal?
So they are rabidly in support of a war that actively makes theirs lives worse on the grounds that if they "win" then things will just go back to normal, but if they "lose" then all the bad things that are happening due to their involvement in the war will become permanent?
Maybe but then again Annalena Baerbock herself said that things won't go back to being normal "even after Ukraine has won".
So it might be self delusion at this point.
Things won't go back to normal because Baerbock's mission to further subjugate Germany under the boot of the US will have been a roaring success.
Hmm. I'm not sure then. It could be that they just don't believe her? Libs do tend to reject news they don't like to hear, even from "trusted sources."
I'm trying to make sense of support for Ukraine in Europe. In my own country it makes sense, because Rupert Murdoch tells us to jump and the public all reads in the headlines exactly how high.
But in a country where the war is causing worsening material conditions? I would've thought the propaganda can only go so far before people start to care more about their own lives and livelihoods than some abstract "war" in another nation.
I remember a lot of predictions around the first winter during this war, that Europe would stop their support due to preferring not to freeze to death or go into massive debt to prevent it, but it seems that the increased cost of living, gas especially, hasn't dampened their spirits too much, so I'm really wondering why they're so ok with this. It could just be a loud minority who are wealthy enough to not be majorly effected, while the poorer people support the war far less I suppose.
I would like to know more about the state of things over there if you've got more information for me.
I think the answer is multy tiered. A big reason for the mentality of many Germans is Germanies recent history.
A lot of Germans still feel somewhat guilty about WW II and believe it's their duty to prevent another Hitler. But since analysing the reasons for Hitler's rise to power would require a critique of capitalism and it's inherent relation to fascism it's not taught that way in school (or anywhere). Instead it's the usual "great man theory" nonsense.
Combine that with the systematic smear campaign that is going on since the dissolution of the GDR and you end with the current situation. Tons and tons of Germans believe that the GDR was a horrible rouge state where the Stasi disappeared you for thinking a single subversive thought, the UdSSR was worse than Nazi Germany and Stalin was best buds with Hitler.
Now we are in a situation were Germans believe that Putin is trying to rebuild the UdSSR and since communism is worse than fascism, it's totally justifiable to arm Nazi's to fight Russia. But Putin is also totally just like Hitler. This has gotten so ridiculous that a common name for Putin is Putler now (Liberals and contradicting themselves, name a more iconic duo).
Supporting the fight against Russia is seen as a way to show that we are good boys now and have learned from the horrors of fascism and supposed horrors of communism. At least that's what somewhat well off liberals believe.
Those who actually feel the consequences of the war flock to the far right AFD party. Mainly because there is no good left wing alternative. The Linke is busy with infighting and the DKP is way too small and the average member is older than 50.
I see, yeah, there are probably a lot of reasons, though "preventing the next Hitler" is something I hadn't really thought about much. That's what our libs say about Putin too, but for some reason it didn't occur to me that Germans would take a strong stance because of that.
Though it is kind of scary to see the nation that literally empowered Hitler not actually teach anything about his rise to power. I expect it from my own country, but Germany? I guess it does make sense. I've often thought that the "next Hitler" will goosestep into the room and declare the enemies of western capital "nazis" as a way to get people on board with Fascism, but it really does seem like that's Germany's actual plan, instead of it just being incidental.
If socialism ever does rise in the west and we don't just descend into barbarism, I have no real idea how we could properly educate and deprogram the masses, so much bullshit is pushed into their heads, and it is so "easy" to believe, while actual attempts at understanding history require a ton of energy and nuance.
I mean, it is going down. You can see it by the rising numbers for the AfD. While people will likely never outright go "this is a waste of time, let's ditch Ukraine to save ourselves" there's a lot of people going for the party they think will give them just that - and it happens to be the far-right - who have no qualms about supporting Russia over questions of morality and aren't constantly infighting.
The whole War in Ukraine really was the nightmare scenario for the left.
and rely on Russian trade in several sectors
I'm guessing oil and metals?
For imports, metals, coal, oil, gas. Which makes it pretty readily apparent why our energy costs have skyrocketed. We actually get a lot of seafood from Russia as well, which may surprise people who assume we just get our own fish. Salmon and roe primarily, I believe.
Exports were largely cars or car parts.
We actually get a lot of seafood from Russia as well
That sure as hell surprised me!
- Show
so it's basically "Hitler's 1935 Nuremberg Rally Speech" translated into Estonian. Of course the only difference is people aren't calling to mass slaughter 300.000 here. Not yet anyways. 2014-22 now did not happen at all and people genuinely think Ukraine will be a prosperous, wealthy and powerful democracy. However, it will most likely be Hitluania or Natsvia who will build the first Bantustans.
Oh, and stay away from :reddit-logo:/eesti
Also anything remotely contrary to NATO narrative is immediately branded as "Kremlin propaganda" - Auschwitz was also called "Russian propaganda (like page 10 in Blackshirts & Reds)" but whatever ig
I've also since abandoned my more liberal take of "Russia was wrong to invade" and have shifted more Russia-leaning, along the lines of "Russia gave the post-coup government of Ukraine chances for 8 years - ceasefires, Minsk agreements, renounciation of joining NATO, deploying Western nuclear weapons and immediate halting of Apartheid policies against Russians in Crimea and eastern Ukraine - really basic, normal, reasonable demands. This war is not so much about whether it was right or wrong, but a response when all other options were exhausted".
How's the overall situation over there? I've heard talks about deporting Russian speakers, but I think it was Lithuania? Does your government have similar ideas?
They had but :eSStonia: decided they won't start deporting Russian citizens or arresting people for swearing on the bus in Russian.
And yes, it was Natsvia and Hitluania who went ahead with Russian language bans and deportations.
I'm from Portugal, a country that has no history with either Russia or Ukraine. No one here knows anything about the history of both countries. So it was very surprising, that when this war broke out for there to be an absolute insane support for Ukraine. People here are deluded that Ukraine can still win this war, they have no clue what's going on in the front lines. Even the tiniest achievement by Ukraine is celebrated by the media. It's ridiculous how much anti-Russian sentiment there is. Our participation in the war has been pretty much non-existent, so the fanatic support for Ukraine is even more ridiculous.
Hey this war opened my eyes , I realized west is full of bigoted racists specially those who are in the EU
God damn, right? I'd think I was in 1930s Germany for the shit I see and hear said about Russian people
In the first days of the war , Tolstoy to Russian cats got cancelled. I was so angry when they rejected Paralympic Russian team because they refused to sign a proclamation for not supporting the war. It was so disgusting, how can any Olympic dommittee support this Nazi type discrimination to Olympians and athletes I just don't understand. Then I saw Russian paralympic team singing their national anthem in a self made video. I felt so bad... so bad.. I am in full support of Russia and Russian people for this SMO. Down with NATO nazis.
next to no history with either participant Overwhelming support for the US-backed side
It would be funny if it wasn't so bloody common. Goes to show how pervasive propaganda is
Excuse me for asking Lusitanian comrade , but there was no dismissal of Russian history professors at universities in Portugal, because of the war, I saw some Portuguese journalists commenting on this aspect. and also the Ukrainian refugees were asking for the closure of the Portuguese communist party?
Yes, one Russian college teacher was fired because he was accused of spreading Russian propaganda (so much for free speech). He wasn't even allowed to defend himself. The accusation was started by a TV political commentator (absolute clown, claims Putin is far-left), the University fired the teacher and reiterated their support for Ukraine.
Also yes, we have some Ukronazis in our country. There are also Ukrainians that are pro-Russia, so Ukrainian immigrants are a mixed bag. But the Communist party has been taking a beating in the media. They frequently have to assert that they have no connections to Putin, because news reporters keep asking them the same questions (with obvious malicious intent). This war has been an excuse for rampant anti-communism in the media. Anything goes these days.
EU commies in a nutshell .... "I am not bed with Poutine " have to repeat endlessly XD
Even just a year ago, every other car spouted a Ukrainian flag. Nowadays, the overall attitude is “our country is falling apart, can we please stop sending money for our proxy war”.
I can say that the Bay Area and adjacent area liberals have literally clinked their wine glasses over death and killing in Ukraine.
I lost count of how many Tolkein references to orcs (and Sauron and Mordor and Uruk-Hai) broke out, too.
https://existentialcomics.com/comic/175
Funny. Back when I was in middle school, LOTR movies came out and we were playing it with some of the guys. I've always played the ork. Specifically uruk-hai archer. Always.
Funny how things turned out
I always leaned toward that sort of play too. I even played Da Orkz like a proppa git in 40k.
The last faded miniature ukranian flags dissapeared from balconies in sunny neolib hell a few months ago
Still got plenty where I live. Essex England is literally the WASPiest place in the world though
Good that I'm in Brazil and it seems the liberals here don't care a lot about Ukraine.
In indonesia is also the same, doesnt give a shit about ukraine, But most here is.. what ive seen so far is.. pro-russian
People where I'm from (Montréal) are mostly sympathetic with Ukrainian refugees and willing to spend some effort helping them integrate and make ends meet. I've been asked to donate a couple times.
I haven't heard any hard opinions about the conflict beyond the default Putin bad/hope Ukraine wins stuff and also a lot of comments about how messed up improvised drone warfare is.
All in all the reaction is very similar to when shit goes down in Haiti or Africa for example. Bad shit from far away that people can't really do anything about, and since we don't really see ourselves as participants in geopolitics most people just don't care all that much.
Still pretty bloodthirsty, but all things considered western propaganda hasn't been as successful as other places (I live in scotland, where most people have quite alternative opinions to the mainstream). But that doesn't stop them from trying, like my college teachers who keep bringing up scottish martial tradition and how we're "warriors", like some girl apparently said she would fight in ukraine and the teacher keeps bringing up how she's so brave.
Most people are divided on this but when are we aren't? Suffice to say the war in ukraine has just become background information for most people.
