Im a European left wing queer person, ive organised occupations, I've done door knocking and leaflet-ing detail, I've mocked many a liberal
Hexbear deny genocides, which is... pretty fucking bad. And they're fuckin everywhere, contributing nothing of value
Bin em
(But i will say, this instance seems way happier to defed from hexbear than from the racist, anti-trans exploding heads, which was apparently super controversial for some reason)
This is way too swift and easy a dismissal. Things are bad in Xinjiang, but there is undeniably also a lot of bullshit floating around on the topic. Even the UN concedes there is no mass killing or organ harvesting. A lot of claims come from known bullshitters like Adrien Zens, the folks at Radio Free Asia, the NED, and other sources connected to the US state department. Xinjiang is a complex topic and should be discussed in a complex way, not just "anyone who disputes any aspect of the prevailing western narrative is a genocide denying monster."
A million Iraqis died because Americans believed a fake story in 2003. More died in the 90s because Americans believed the Nayirah testimony. But if you had gone on an internet forum in 2003 and tried to debunk the Iraqi WMD reports, you would have looked like Charlie from IASIP with the red strings all over the wall.
There were forged documents showing Saddam had tried to buy yellowcake uranium from Niger. There was testimony from a fake Iraqi nuclear scientist named Khidir Hamza. There were accounts of stockpiles of chemical weapons in glass capsules. There were diagrams of mobile chemical weapons manufacturing systems. There were the aluminum tubes, alleged to be parts for uranium enrichment equipment. There were names and dates and purchasing records, interviews, witnesses, I mean the list goes on, I'm scratching the surface. And the politicians and the media for both parties all vouched for the information and relentlessly pushed the case.
It seems trivial now, but the story was persuasive at the time, and debunking it was no easy task. If America didn't drag multiple countries into an expensive war based on that story, the details never would have been scrutinized to such an extent, and we would probably still believe it.
But if you had gone on an internet forum in2003and tried to debunk the Iraqi WMD reports, you would have looked like Charlie from IASIP with the red strings allover the wall.
I was there back then and people were calling bullshit. Heck, even Canada's Prime Minister called bullshit and found an excuse not to join the USA while not pissing them off by calling them liars.
And even a majority is Muslim nations calling bullshit! I can't say the majority of nations, because I am not sure of sources for this outside of UN votes
Two points: First, the US engaged in a war of aggression and probably not specifically genocide in Iraq. This is a real difference of kind. Still criminal state activity and of course the US got away with it free (mostly) just like how it gets away with all its crimes against humanity or whatever. A better example would be the US commiting genocide on the native population, which was one of the most intense and successful ethnic extermination campaigns in history.
Second, it was pretty obvious at the time that all that shit was made up. I called it hard and was right. So did many, many others. They were just afraid to say it out loud because the county was very, very rapidly being pushed toward turning into a fascist nightmare. (Seriously, people forget how fucked up it was.) After Colin Powell'a speech to the UN my father and i had a conversation and made a bet. If what Powell said turned out to be false then my father would leave the Republican party and stop supporting that kind of crap. If it turned out to be true i would join. Now i really didn't want to vote Republican, had no intention of doing so, but i knew i wasn't going to lose that bet. My father, for his part, stayed true to his word.
The point of the Iraq lie isn't simply a redirection that "the US also does it." it's that the empire is capable of widescale deception to manufacture consent when the need arises. you may have realized it was a crock, but enough people were fooled the wholesale destruction of multiple sovereign nations went off without a hitch. "Bush lied, people died" only became the majority opinion after they had gotten away with it. Even now the popular consensus is that "mistakes were made," not that there was a wilful deception for the sake of expanding US global military hegemony.
first, the US engaged in a war of aggression and probably not specifically a genocide in Iraq. This is a real difference of kind.
The other difference is that one actually happened and the other did not.
Also, if we were about to go to war with China, I bet it would suddenly become obvious to a lot of people that the US has been making shit up since the trade war started.
pretty obvious
iirc around 76% of Americans supported the Iraq war.
Maybe I wasn't here yet, but I don't remember exploding-heads users coming by the dozen to insult and taunt us on posts on our own instance. That's the behavior that has people up in arms about Hexbear. If instead they just made the occasional post in support of genocide to "own" the USA, I think there would be a lot less support for defederation.
I know it's rude to bring up a post from three years ago, but here you go. To Hexbear's collective credit, I couldn't quickly find someone on there supporting the Khmer Rouge.
Anyhow, the real problem is Hexbears' behavior.
So many Hexbears spilled into our instance -- this is not your instance, it's our instance -- posting disgusting images and oversized emotes, screaming insults at anyone who doesn't toe their party line ("call outs"), and trolling left, right and center. And I don't think this is the first time, either. There is no reason to believe that the majority of visiting Hexbears are willing to make constructive posts, and that's cause for defederation..
Sure. KiaKaha wrote the whole post to argue that keeping the Uyghur nation in prison camps and banning their culture was the humane solution to keeping the Tarim Basin, conquered 250 years ago by the Manchus in a war against the Dzungar Mongols, from rebelling against the heirs of the heirs of the Manchus.
The CPC could give up and surrender Xinjiang to ISIS. This option condemns millions of people to living under a fundamentalist Islamic State, including many non-Muslims and non-extreme Muslims. This option creates a CIA-aligned state on the border, and jeopardises a key part of the Belt and Road initiative, which is designed to connect landlocked countries for development and geopolitical positioning. This option also threatens the CPC’s legitimacy, as keeping China together is a historical signifier of the Mandate of Heaven.
The final option is the Chinese option. Mass surveillance. Use AI to liberally target anyone who may be at risk of radicalisation for re-education. Teach them the lingua franca of China, Mandarin. Pump money into the region for development. When people finish their time in re-education, set them up with state jobs. Keep the surveillance up. Allow and even celebrate local religious customs, but make sure the leaders are on-side with the party.
Let’s take a moment to distinguish that last approach from that of Nazi Germany. Nazi Germany wanted to exterminate the undesirables. Initially it was internment in concentration camps with the outcome up in the air, with a vague hope of shipping them to Madagascar or palestine, but it later morphed into full extermination. All throughout, Nazi Germany was pushing strong rhetoric of antisemitism and stoking ethnic hatred in the public sphere.
Mr. Xi also told officials to not discriminate against Uighurs and to respect their right to worship. He warned against overreacting to natural friction between Uighurs and Han Chinese, the nation’s dominant ethnic group, and rejected proposals to try to eliminate Islam entirely in China.
“In light of separatist and terrorist forces under the banner of Islam, some people have argued that Islam should be restricted or even eradicated,” he said during the Beijing conference. He called that view “biased, even wrong.”
we are getting all sorts of shit leaking into hexbear from your instance, why do you think we're so hostile. How have so many nazis been hiding on your instance
This. The overwhelming majority of content from exploding heads remained on exploding heads. Not only that, but there aren't that many active users there, so you really didn't see much from them anyway.
Everyone is a "genocide denier," unless you believe in "The Great Replacement" and white genocide, for instance. But there's a big difference between denying made up bullshit like that and denying well-documented genocides, which we do not do.
So you don't even deny that you won't defed from an admittedly anti-trans racist instance? And you want to try to tell me your community isn't cool with racists (which makes you racist)
I think the issue with EH was that at that point registration was still free for all and Lemmygrad was already defederated so there were more right wing users that figured the place was open to them..,
Also the decision process wasn't established yet...
But you can be sure that HB will come in droves to hijack the discussion when it gets created...
Im a European left wing queer person, ive organised occupations, I've done door knocking and leaflet-ing detail, I've mocked many a liberal
Hexbear deny genocides, which is... pretty fucking bad. And they're fuckin everywhere, contributing nothing of value
Bin em
(But i will say, this instance seems way happier to defed from hexbear than from the racist, anti-trans exploding heads, which was apparently super controversial for some reason)
deleted by creator
It's not just one guy saying it, there's more evidence than that.
Also fuck you on the Holodomor. That kind of shit is why people don't take you seriously.
first of all, props for organizing.
This is way too swift and easy a dismissal. Things are bad in Xinjiang, but there is undeniably also a lot of bullshit floating around on the topic. Even the UN concedes there is no mass killing or organ harvesting. A lot of claims come from known bullshitters like Adrien Zens, the folks at Radio Free Asia, the NED, and other sources connected to the US state department. Xinjiang is a complex topic and should be discussed in a complex way, not just "anyone who disputes any aspect of the prevailing western narrative is a genocide denying monster."
A million Iraqis died because Americans believed a fake story in 2003. More died in the 90s because Americans believed the Nayirah testimony. But if you had gone on an internet forum in 2003 and tried to debunk the Iraqi WMD reports, you would have looked like Charlie from IASIP with the red strings all over the wall.
There were forged documents showing Saddam had tried to buy yellowcake uranium from Niger. There was testimony from a fake Iraqi nuclear scientist named Khidir Hamza. There were accounts of stockpiles of chemical weapons in glass capsules. There were diagrams of mobile chemical weapons manufacturing systems. There were the aluminum tubes, alleged to be parts for uranium enrichment equipment. There were names and dates and purchasing records, interviews, witnesses, I mean the list goes on, I'm scratching the surface. And the politicians and the media for both parties all vouched for the information and relentlessly pushed the case.
It seems trivial now, but the story was persuasive at the time, and debunking it was no easy task. If America didn't drag multiple countries into an expensive war based on that story, the details never would have been scrutinized to such an extent, and we would probably still believe it.
But if you had gone on an internet forum in 2003 and tried to debunk the Iraqi WMD reports, you would have looked like Charlie from IASIP with the red strings all over the wall.I was there back then and people were calling bullshit. Heck, even Canada's Prime Minister called bullshit and found an excuse not to join the USA while not pissing them off by calling them liars.
similarly, there are people now, calling bullshit on the xinjiang organ harvesting narratives
And even a majority is Muslim nations calling bullshit! I can't say the majority of nations, because I am not sure of sources for this outside of UN votes
Two points: First, the US engaged in a war of aggression and probably not specifically genocide in Iraq. This is a real difference of kind. Still criminal state activity and of course the US got away with it free (mostly) just like how it gets away with all its crimes against humanity or whatever. A better example would be the US commiting genocide on the native population, which was one of the most intense and successful ethnic extermination campaigns in history.
Second, it was pretty obvious at the time that all that shit was made up. I called it hard and was right. So did many, many others. They were just afraid to say it out loud because the county was very, very rapidly being pushed toward turning into a fascist nightmare. (Seriously, people forget how fucked up it was.) After Colin Powell'a speech to the UN my father and i had a conversation and made a bet. If what Powell said turned out to be false then my father would leave the Republican party and stop supporting that kind of crap. If it turned out to be true i would join. Now i really didn't want to vote Republican, had no intention of doing so, but i knew i wasn't going to lose that bet. My father, for his part, stayed true to his word.
The point of the Iraq lie isn't simply a redirection that "the US also does it." it's that the empire is capable of widescale deception to manufacture consent when the need arises. you may have realized it was a crock, but enough people were fooled the wholesale destruction of multiple sovereign nations went off without a hitch. "Bush lied, people died" only became the majority opinion after they had gotten away with it. Even now the popular consensus is that "mistakes were made," not that there was a wilful deception for the sake of expanding US global military hegemony.
The other difference is that one actually happened and the other did not.
Also, if we were about to go to war with China, I bet it would suddenly become obvious to a lot of people that the US has been making shit up since the trade war started.
iirc around 76% of Americans supported the Iraq war.
are you denying the genocide we just made up and paid news people to talk about to pretend its real? how dare you
Maybe I wasn't here yet, but I don't remember exploding-heads users coming by the dozen to insult and taunt us on posts on our own instance. That's the behavior that has people up in arms about Hexbear. If instead they just made the occasional post in support of genocide to "own" the USA, I think there would be a lot less support for defederation.
what the fuck? show me one comment or post fucking anywhere on hexbear that supports genocide
is it supporting Saddam nuking people to dispute that he ever had nuclear weapons?
I know it's rude to bring up a post from three years ago, but here you go. To Hexbear's collective credit, I couldn't quickly find someone on there supporting the Khmer Rouge.
Anyhow, the real problem is Hexbears' behavior. So many Hexbears spilled into our instance -- this is not your instance, it's our instance -- posting disgusting images and oversized emotes, screaming insults at anyone who doesn't toe their party line ("call outs"), and trolling left, right and center. And I don't think this is the first time, either. There is no reason to believe that the majority of visiting Hexbears are willing to make constructive posts, and that's cause for defederation..
Okay now can you point to where users support genocide in that thread?
Sure. KiaKaha wrote the whole post to argue that keeping the Uyghur nation in prison camps and banning their culture was the humane solution to keeping the Tarim Basin, conquered 250 years ago by the Manchus in a war against the Dzungar Mongols, from rebelling against the heirs of the heirs of the Manchus.
Where? I'm not seeing it. Here's what @KiaKaha@hexbear.net wrote:
Approximately 50% of what you hear is outright propaganda, as we know the CIA’s affiliates churn out. We also see CIA assets pushing narratives on Reddit. The next 25% is poorly researched speculation by an evangelical end-timer, and the final 25% is an accurate description of the PRC’s response to far right, religious terrorism and separatism.
First, let’s just establish using safe, American sources that a bunch of Uyghur people went to fight with ISIS in Syria, then returned. Let’s also establish that there have been consistent terrorist attacks with significant casualties and that the CIA and CIA front-groups have funded and stoked Islamic extremism across the world for geopolitical gain.
Now, we need to consider potential responses.
The CPC could give up and surrender Xinjiang to ISIS. This option condemns millions of people to living under a fundamentalist Islamic State, including many non-Muslims and non-extreme Muslims. This option creates a CIA-aligned state on the border, and jeopardises a key part of the Belt and Road initiative, which is designed to connect landlocked countries for development and geopolitical positioning. This option also threatens the CPC’s legitimacy, as keeping China together is a historical signifier of the Mandate of Heaven.
The next option is the American option. Drone strike, black-site, or otherwise liquidate anyone who could be associated with Islamic extremism. Be liberal in doing so. Make children fear blue skies because of drones. When the orphaned young children grow up, do it all again. You can also throw a literal man-made famine in there if you want.
The final option is the Chinese option. Mass surveillance. Use AI to liberally target anyone who may be at risk of radicalisation for re-education. Teach them the lingua franca of China, Mandarin. Pump money into the region for development. When people finish their time in re-education, set them up with state jobs. Keep the surveillance up. Allow and even celebrate local religious customs, but make sure the leaders are on-side with the party.
Let’s take a moment to distinguish that last approach from that of Nazi Germany. Nazi Germany wanted to exterminate the undesirables. Initially it was internment in concentration camps with the outcome up in the air, with a vague hope of shipping them to Madagascar or palestine, but it later morphed into full extermination. All throughout, Nazi Germany was pushing strong rhetoric of antisemitism and stoking ethnic hatred in the public sphere.
There’s no evidence, including from leaked papers, that the goal of the deradicalisation programme is permanent internment or annihilation of Islam. In fact, the leaked papers have Xi explicitly saying Islam should not be annihilated from China:
As for permanent internment, we know from leaks that the minimum duration of detention is one year — though accounts from ex-detainees suggest that some are released sooner.
Unlike Nazi Germany, there’s no stoking of inter-ethnic hatred or elimination of a specific culture; the CPC actively censors footage from terrorist attacks in China to avoid such an outcome. Xi doesn’t go on TV calling any ethnicity rapists or murderers. Uighur culture is actively celebrated in the media and via tourism. Xinjiang has 24,400 mosques, one per 530 Muslims. That’s three mosques per capita more than their western peers.
Could China’s approach be done better? Almost certainly. Is it the most humane response to extremism we’ve seen so far? That’s for you to decide.
(Reposted from here )
So no one supports genocide then? Got it.
No, that does meet the standard of genocide. Not the "killed them all and threw them in mass graves" version but that's not the only way it can come.
What you're doing is trivializing actual genocide
we are getting all sorts of shit leaking into hexbear from your instance, why do you think we're so hostile. How have so many nazis been hiding on your instance
Yeah thats a fair point. Hexbear is harder to ignore
This. The overwhelming majority of content from exploding heads remained on exploding heads. Not only that, but there aren't that many active users there, so you really didn't see much from them anyway.
Everyone is a "genocide denier," unless you believe in "The Great Replacement" and white genocide, for instance. But there's a big difference between denying made up bullshit like that and denying well-documented genocides, which we do not do.
Would you prefer if they said "deny or ignore serious and well-sourced accusations of genocide"?
No, because then they'd be lying. What I'd prefer is that they actually provide sources for whatever "well-sourced" genocides we're alleged to deny.
EH had 10 people, only two of which were actively posting outside of their instance
So you don't even deny that you won't defed from an admittedly anti-trans racist instance? And you want to try to tell me your community isn't cool with racists (which makes you racist)
what? we did defed from EH lol
I think the issue with EH was that at that point registration was still free for all and Lemmygrad was already defederated so there were more right wing users that figured the place was open to them..,
Also the decision process wasn't established yet...
But you can be sure that HB will come in droves to hijack the discussion when it gets created...
Do you have any good resources for neighborhood detail? Or would it be very area / demographic / community specific?
Removed by mod