Title says it all.
I am a huge 40k fan and I know how problematic 40k is with its portrayal of endless war and facism. Comrade @relay@lemmygrad.ml has put it best:
Maybe all of the 40k factions are fascist and that universe’s lore has no dialectic of class struggle and is to violent to be realistic, thus serves as part of the superstructure for fascism.
it reinforces the idea that the conflict between tribes will always supercede the conflict between classes. It’s wrong on so many levels.
And yet I can't hate it. I have a hard time taking 40k serious and seeing it as more than a silly boardgame with cool minis and (deliciously) stupid lore.
Same with B99. I know that the show is horrid copacanda, I know that shows like this prevent people from seeing pigs as the pigs they are because "funny cop show portraits them as silly and relatable." But I still like the show a lot. I like the characters and just pretend that it plays in a parallel universe were cops aren't the worst.
I just sort of suppress any critical thoughts and take those things at face value without thinking about what they imply. It's just very hard to find alternatives.
So yeah I feel terrible for finding enjoyment in this stuff even though I know I shouldn't. Can anyone relate or do you perhaps have similar feelings towards other franchises?
If you can enjoy it, enjoy it. No entertainment is completely free of issues and problems. It is frustrating watching something with friends and they clearly don't examine the deeper themes whatsoever ("It's just a fun superhero movie, there's nothing deeper about it, you overanalyse everything!")
But if you're just enjoying something on its own, especially something with a huge variety of writers coming at the franchise with wildly different interpretations like 40k, there's nothing wrong with that.
I've touched on this before, but as socialists, we need to be able to reach the masses. The masses aren't interested in theory, or why their favourite cop show is problematic, they just want fun distractions. You have to ease people into that stuff, and you start by being a regular person who can enjoy things rather than an overly uptight "stop having fun guys" kind of person.
*Insert that Ultra-Maoist copypasta here. *
It is frustrating watching something with friends and they clearly don’t examine the deeper themes whatsoever (“It’s just a fun superhero movie, there’s nothing deeper about it, you overanalyse everything!”)
I pretty much never examine the deeper themes of whatever I'm watching
I'm a professional writer, cursed to analyse the dialogue and plot in everything I watch. I can't just "switch brain off, enjoy" at all anymore.
酒肉穿肠过，佛祖心中留 Wine and meat pass through the intestines, but the Buddha stays in your heart. As long as your faith is firm, you don't have to feel guilty.
First and I think only time I've argued with comrades here was over 40k.
I think at the end of the day any given 40k fan can be someone who's aware of the issues with 40k but still enjoys it (for so many possible reasons, but growing up with it being the focus of your social circles is a big one I think), or they could be someone who enjoys the fascist fantasy, or they could be completely politically ignorant and unaware of how much it's shaping their worldview.
There's too many variables. There's a vast diversity of liberal media out there, an even bigger variety of people consuming it, and every combination thereof should be judged on its own merits.
I used to love Age of Sail Royal Navy/British Empire stuff. I read all the Patrick O'Brien books (Master and Commander etc), Hornblower, and tangentially Bernard Cornwell's Sharpe books. I can't read any of it anymore without it making my skin crawl, but I can remember how much I loved those stories. I'll still get goose bumps listening to the Sharpe theme, but I'd rather pull my brains out through my nose than defend the actions of the British Empire. I don't think there's a contradiction there. It's just the emotional vestiges of the growth and change we go through as humans. I feel a little sadness and nostalgia when I see the colonial Hong Kong flag I grew up under burning, but I'll also be the one that set it on fire.
And Star Trek. I don't doubt for a second that Gene Rodenberry died a closet communist. The shows themselves are a mess ideologically, with writers and showrunners of different ideologies all throwing their ideas into the mix of what the Federation is and how a stateless, moneyless society that has a science-exploration-diplomacy space navy with a military rank system actually works under the hood. But then because of that ambiguity Star Trek becomes what you make of it. I can see the old me, who enjoyed it as a space military thing, getting pissed off about the recent musical episode while the current me thought it was genius.
At the end of the day what happens between you and liberal (any) media is unique to you, and only you can judge the effect it's having on you. Where we have to be careful, though, is how we conspicuously consume and talk about media around other people, because our actions and words affect how they interact with the same.
After listening to and reading Parenti, I couldn't watch any/liberal entertainment media at all. It wasn't a feeling of guilt put undiluted anger. Books, shows, graphic novels. Everything.
Thankfully that feeling relented. Now I can enjoy most fiction (written, audio, or audio-visual). I'm a little bit more discerning than I was. But I can even enjoy the stuff that's right on the nose because it's so ridiculous.
So long as you're treating 40k as entertainment rather than a guide to life, it's fine, I think. You can always critique it while you're engaging with it. Just know that it could ruin it for you for a while, until you 're-adjust' to enjoying things that you are critical about.
“The Battle at Lake Changjin” is based on real battles where Korean and Chinese communists killed American invaders. Good stuff.
I love the way they portray the US military and especially McArthur in this film. And I love showing it to liberal friends who think they see through the bias of the Western stuff they watch, and think the Western stuff is just a little biased but mostly accurate.
History seems to agree with the Chinese portrayal of McArthur. He was a vile excuse for a human.
History seems to agree with the Chinese portrayal of McArthur
Even US history classes can’t manage to paint him as a decent person
War films from Russia and China actually celebrate real war heroes defeating fascism.
Just be careful with the Russian war movies after 1985. Some are straight up anti-Soviet propaganda (Mikhalkov's "Tired by the sun" series). Other are simply crap or revisionist as hell (Zoya, Devyataev, T-34)
No. I did feel some loss when i realised how much horribleness is included in it, but thinking of it in marxist terms in attempt to deconstruct it replaces suprisingly most of it with fun too.
It gets better—or at least different—when you come to no longer enjoy much liberal media. The bad news is the dearth of alternatives to it.
The only thing studying up on propaganda has really ruined for me are Marvel movies. As far as war and action movies that revolve around American machismo, I didn't engage with those anyway.
Same, I liked Black Panther when it came out, but now feel disgusted at all he idea the CIA could have a positive affect on foreign politics.
Or Falcon and the Winter soldier.
Black Captain America takes down leftist refugee group. He agrees with their ideas but not their "methods." See? Amerikkka's top cop faces racism too!
No, I absolutely love peeking into the minds of petulant liberals. It’s sorta torturing myself idk, maybe I’m sadistic but I love forcing myself to watch The West Wing. God it’s such a different world over there. I highly suggest watching a few episodes and then listening to Chapo’s West Wing reviews. Chapo tore them a new one and perfectly describes everything wrong with the show. My favorite part is how Democrats in the show are depicted as so smart that they can sway Republicans, when in reality Republicans will never be convinced of anything because their corporate handlers mean more than any free thought in their mind. And don’t even get me started on documentaries about Democrat presidents
I get it. In terms of fiction I can let it slide and just enjoy the entertainment as long as it's not in your face lib grandstanding. For example I've enjoyed the current Star Wars series.
In terms of documentaries I just can't anymore. My partner enjoys the Netflix true financial and cult crime type stuff and I get headaches from that kind of non-materialist drivel.
I actually just started watching some C-dramas and I'm having a great time.
Andor was nice in parts, I thought they portrayed the efficient evil of the Empire really well from a personal level and the uprising kicked ass. Wish there was more of SW from the people's perspective, thought they might go there with the second sequel when they had that kid slave during the casino heist, but it didn't go anywhere.
Yeah I know what you mean.
I feel like 40k or B99 problems stem from the liberal environment in which they are created. In another society I wouldn't have any problems with them. A show about silly cops doing silly stuff comes of way different in a communist society where the job of the police really is helping and protecting others instead of being the skull breakers and murderers of capitalism. That's part of the reason why I can find enjoyment in B99 but not in stuff like the Rookie.
B99 is almost a caricature and while it never engages in any solutions or real (read non liberal "a few bad apples") criticism of the police. It's comical enough for me to go "Yeah that's fiction." While still being aware that at the end of the day it shows racist murderers and enforcers of the bourgeois rule as funny good guys.
The Rookie tries to make you feel sympathy for real life cops sooooo bad it's ridiculous. It's rather obvious that the intention of the show is to portray a "relasticish" police drama. Which just doesn't gel with me since there just is nothing sympathetic about real life cops at all.
I don't watch live broadcast TV and it's been a while since I've lived in North America, but my perception of North American broadcast TV dramas is that they're all either copaganda or medical drama at this point.
40k actually got pretty funny to me, as GW are trying to portray Tau as communist, when the closest to communism by a country mile as they're described are...Craftworld Eldar=) Automated production, near total social mobility, meritocracy, war only waged by necessity... Still dicks to the others, of course, couldn't have it any other way in 40k.
I mostly dropped it because GW aren't even trying to keep the lore consistent. Shitty philosophical and political ideas in fiction just help me separate it from reality.
When content is both uninteresting and pushing some cringe, that's...yeah, that just amplifies the cringe damage.
trying to portray Tau as communist
Pretty sure that was just fanbase memes, GW was too busy with shitty, half-baked Asian stereotypes. Meanwhile Gav Thorpe, one of the most prominent Black Library authors, claimed in a
AMA that Tau were "based on NATO". Which is a separate layer of hilarious- Show
Nice. Didn't know about that. Are we sure he meant it in a based way?
The whole "that's something vaguely Asian and tOtAlItArIaN" thing with the Tau was always a part of that for me though. I mean, China and DPRK've been the main commie boogeymen since USSR collapsed. That's probably why the meme sprung up to begin with.
Are we sure he meant it in a based way?
I'll try to find the actual thread or screenshots. But he probably did not tbh. Agreed with the rest
Fucking what?!
What's next?
"Hey Guys, Dan Abnett here I just wanted to check in to tell you that the Imperium is actually based on Ukraine and Chaos is modern day Russia."
Thinking about it that might already be the case anyway.
Lmao, that thread. I'll try to find the thread with Gav, see what was said verbatim.
Incidentally, I once saw a fan (mod of a 40k RP server) claim "Imperium are the Nazis, and Chaos are the Jews", and then get mad and throw a tantrum, when people pointed out comparing victims of Holocaust to a faction that practices all sorts of monstrous rituals and specifically seeks to destroy reality is, you know, not a good look. But that's fans, and fans are silly
I watch horror movies, mostly. So it’s usually a suburban family or a group of teens getting shredded by some monster.
Watch the Texas chainsaw massacre remake. A bunch of venture capitalists get what they deserve.
John Carpenter also makes some incredible horror with anti-capitalist / anti-imperialist themes.
It really depends, but definitely my ability to enjoy a lot of media/entertainment has declined in the past 4-5 years. I mainly watch sports for entertainment, specifically football/soccer, and for me that is something I am still able to approach mostly with sheer cognitive dissonance. I can still get excited about my club spending £100m on a player despite the obvious ridiculousness of that.
All of the discussion lately over Saudi Arabia and the general eurocentrism of supporters especially the self righteous sort on r/soccer is incredibly annoying, but fortunately it’s easy enough to avoid that.
I definitely still enjoy movies as well for the most part, but I typically go see horror or comedy or whatever and not serious dramas or movies dripping with propaganda so it is easier.
One major thing I used to love and simply cannot appreciate at all anymore is the musical Hamilton. Such a fun well constructed musical but sheesh the content is chauvinistic and liberal.
Every single yankee action movie for the past 30 years is completely disgusting, not only blatant on the nose propaganda, but truly revolting so there is no possibility that anyone can enjoy them. But I like the old action movies with Schwartzi and Stallone, Rambo 1 was good also. I watched Marvel up until the Endgame, after I had enough of it and they went to shit anyway, only superhero movies I watched since then are the new Spider Man and Flash.
So I enjoy some superhero movies and OG action ones from 1980s if that counts.
I am at peace with it because it's the environment I am forced to live in and entertainment is part of what makes it bearable. I am aware of the propaganda laced into it, whether it's there as capitalist realism from makers that don't even examine their ideology, or whether it's deliberate messaging.
I have more of an issue with defensive-to-toxic fandoms of such liberal media. I don't feel guilty by association. I feel disgust, sometimes even pity, for people that don't just fail to examine what they consume but outright refuse to believe there's any such ideology to it and get weird and defensive about the product.
