Nobody. During Winter War Finland was fighting alone against Soviet Union.
I think that's one of the things that made the war so notable, tiny Finland fighting against huge Soviet Union, 1 v 1.
It wasn't the symbol of Finnish military till 2002. It was in some limited use. I think it still is btw. The reason was that it's old Finnish symbol since I think iron ages or before and for example the air force logo came from a Swedish count in 1918. Pretty interesting history.
Holy hell this is wrong. Finland in the winter war was a fascist state allied with Germany and it had been since the communists lost the civil war in 1918. Communists had been rounded up and put in camps by the tens of thousands. Finland was effectively a German puppet state by the time the Soviets invaded in 1939.
Finland in the winter war was a fascist state allied with Germany
No, you are thinking of Continuation War. During Winter War Finland wasn't allied with Germany, rather contrary to that Germany was hampering some efforts to ship armaments to Finland because of Molotov-Ribbentrop. Not only that, Finland wasn't at all fascist. It was a functioning multi-party democracy.
Finland was effectively a German puppet state by the time the Soviets invaded in 1939.
That has no basis in reality. I suggest you read this article that gives some basics about the background for Winter War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Background_of_the_Winter_War
See for example: "Finnish–German relations cooled after the National Socialist Party rose to power in Germany in 1933. Finns admired Imperial Germany, but not the radical and antidemocratic Nazi regime. Finnish conservatives did not accept the Nazis' state violence and antireligious policies. Still, there was sympathy for German aims to revise the Treaty of Versailles, but the official Finnish policy was reserved, especially after the German invasion of Czechoslovakia. Finland even recalled its ambassador for a short period.
Finnish Nazis and ultranationalist parties such as the Patriotic People's Movement achieved only minor support in several elections, especially in the aftermath of the failed Mäntsälä rebellion in 1932."
That's not Winter War, that's Continuation War. Simo Häyhä didn't fight in Continuation War. As for war aims during Continuation War, the answer is obvious, to defeat USSR. It's like asking why Germany bombed the UK.
In this case the communist attacked you and started shooting you first. I'd imagine most would defend themselves when attacked
It's an interesting idea though that anyone who communists attack are Nazis. Maybe the funniest conclusion from that is that Vietnamese were Nazis since China attacked Vietnam in 1979.
The Finnish state that fought the Soviet Union, the one which was allied with Nazi Germany, was only established after the wholesale massacre of communists and workers. Anticommunism is the modus operandi of fascism in all its forms. The axis powers in WWII were formalized in the "Anti-Comintern Pact" to which Finland was a signatory.
Using something happened in 1918 and especially 1941 to justify calling Finland Nazi during Winter War that happened in 1939-40 seems fairly creative.
Interesting thing about the Civil War and Winter War though. After the Civil War Finland was heavily divided nation for a long time. And while the wounds had started to heal some, it was the opposition to the Soviet attack that actually brought the left and right together. I'm not sure how true it is, but I've heard Stalin expected the Finnish workers to celebrate him coming over and "freeing them" and was quite surprised that they were having none of that.
That's again something that happened after Winter War. Official Finnish policy towards Jews was luckily much better during the war. Even resulted in funny things such as Nazis awarding a Finnish Jewish soldier the Iron Cross, which is just bizarre to think about.
It would feel a bit strange to say Finland was Nazi during Winter War because during Continuation War Finland was Axis aligned when the USSR attack in Winter War is the biggest reason Finland sought closer ties with Germany.
The USSR wanted Finland to give it areas including the main Finnish defensive line. Knowing what happened with Czechoslovakia and "just a few areas" and knowing what happened to Baltics, it's easy to see what road that would've taken Finland down on.
You’re saying the Continuation War happened solely because of the Winter War
No, I'm saying Finland sought help from the Nazis because during Winter War Finland was left completely alone, the preferred alliance direction of Nordics or UK/France/US panning out to not have done much at all. And both sides, USSR and Finland knew it was just a temporarily truce and another war was coming. Obviously Finland didn't want to be alone, again.
the noted anti-communists were in no-way ideologically aligned with the Nazis before the USSR’s attack
Mostly the Finnish leadership were noted anglophiles.
For sure. But both sides saw another war coming and with how close Finland was to being fully occupied, the worry was that this time Soviet Union wouldn't stop until they had achieved that. Understandable worry in my opinion, even though fighting alongside Nazis is a black mark on Finnish history.
No I really meant that both sides knew that this wasn't over. Both considered it unfinished (heh) business.
The same USSR that recognized Finnish independence in 1918?
The very same (or well, it had changed a bunch but still). Though the Soviet attempt to conquer Finland during Winter War, that had just happened, might've been a bit more prominent in peoples' minds than 1918.
I don't think it was unavoidable, I hope it didn't come off like that. Generally there are three schools of thought about this. Historically the "drift wood" theory has been the most prominent one. It argued that Finland was drift food flowing in the rapids of world events. It argues that Finland just "drifted to Germany's side". It has been popular because Finland had to come to grips with what happened during WW2. And that theory was the copout, basically. "We didn't choose this, it just happened". It was basically the "official truth" for the longest time and even though professional historians abandoned the theory I think since the 70's, it has been the popular explanation among non-historians for the longest time, with it still being somewhat popular. Another theory (not very popular) was that Finland was the willing aggressor and had been seeking out Germany the whole time since independence and wanted to join Germany and jumped at the opportunity. This you can still see in more far-left circles and I think the idea is more popular abroad. It's been brought up here too. Then there's the theory that has since replaced driftwood theory, with a more nuanced and I think historically sound take. It argues that Finland wasn't a driftwood but more a "whitewater boat" I guess. The rapids of world events did influence Finland majorly, but there was also conscientious effort from Finnish side to seek closer ties with Germany. And that's the one I personally believe in. Finland didn't helplessly and unavoidably drift into an alliance with the Nazis, but rather it was influenced by what was happening around Finland, experience of being left alone during Winter War and how close to total defeat Finland was and fears about the unsettled business with Soviet Union. I think seeing all those factors, it's understandable from the POV of the leadership at the time (though not morally defensible) to see why Finland became Nazi Germany's ally.
Area cutting through the Finnish main defensive line and an important peninsula and harbor close to Helsinki vs. areas in the middle of nowhere in Karelia. It wasn't a one-sided suggestion, in fact by area I think the offer was bigger, but it's easy to see why it wasn't accepted when you consider what would be given and where.
When you take a lil peek in the ark of the covenant and your stupid nazi face melts just a lil bit
Unexpected Indiana Jones reference
Simo Häyhä wasn't a Nazi but I did chuckle
Who was Finland allied with? Also, why was the symbol of the finnish military a swastika until 2020?
Nobody. During Winter War Finland was fighting alone against Soviet Union.
I think that's one of the things that made the war so notable, tiny Finland fighting against huge Soviet Union, 1 v 1.
It wasn't the symbol of Finnish military till 2002. It was in some limited use. I think it still is btw. The reason was that it's old Finnish symbol since I think iron ages or before and for example the air force logo came from a Swedish count in 1918. Pretty interesting history.
Holy hell this is wrong. Finland in the winter war was a fascist state allied with Germany and it had been since the communists lost the civil war in 1918. Communists had been rounded up and put in camps by the tens of thousands. Finland was effectively a German puppet state by the time the Soviets invaded in 1939.
No, you are thinking of Continuation War. During Winter War Finland wasn't allied with Germany, rather contrary to that Germany was hampering some efforts to ship armaments to Finland because of Molotov-Ribbentrop. Not only that, Finland wasn't at all fascist. It was a functioning multi-party democracy.
That has no basis in reality. I suggest you read this article that gives some basics about the background for Winter War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Background_of_the_Winter_War
See for example: "Finnish–German relations cooled after the National Socialist Party rose to power in Germany in 1933. Finns admired Imperial Germany, but not the radical and antidemocratic Nazi regime. Finnish conservatives did not accept the Nazis' state violence and antireligious policies. Still, there was sympathy for German aims to revise the Treaty of Versailles, but the official Finnish policy was reserved, especially after the German invasion of Czechoslovakia. Finland even recalled its ambassador for a short period.
Finnish Nazis and ultranationalist parties such as the Patriotic People's Movement achieved only minor support in several elections, especially in the aftermath of the failed Mäntsälä rebellion in 1932."
Jerking off about the Winter War is stereotypical Finnish online mega cringe.
I honestly see it a lot more from people outside of Finland. And we often cringe at that too.
"Oh you're from Finland? Kimi Räikkönen Simo Häyhä Winter War you win against USSR right??"
"..."
The solution is to avoid mentioning you're Finnish
"So, where are you from?"
"Uhhhh, gotta go"
Why did Finland Siege Leningrad from the north and seize the northern isthmus?
Why did Finland attempt to cut off Murmansk on the German’s orders?
That's not Winter War, that's Continuation War. Simo Häyhä didn't fight in Continuation War. As for war aims during Continuation War, the answer is obvious, to defeat USSR. It's like asking why Germany bombed the UK.
He wanted to fight in the Continuation War, he was barred entry to the army.
Also the Continuation War began in 1944. Those things I mentioned happened in 1941, during Operation Barbarossa. Finland was an ally of Nazi Germany.
Yes
No, Continuation War happened 1941-44. You're thinking of Lapland War now. That's 1944-45.
🤓
*puts on spectacles*
Uhm, achkshually, that would be a lot funnier if people weren't arguing with me about the dates and getting them wrong.
*pushes them further up the nose*
So there!
Caught your ass. I was trying to get you to say that.
And why did Finland begin fighting the continuation war at that time?
idk. if you're shooting communists, you're probably a nazi.
In this case the communist attacked you and started shooting you first. I'd imagine most would defend themselves when attacked
It's an interesting idea though that anyone who communists attack are Nazis. Maybe the funniest conclusion from that is that Vietnamese were Nazis since China attacked Vietnam in 1979.
The Finnish state that fought the Soviet Union, the one which was allied with Nazi Germany, was only established after the wholesale massacre of communists and workers. Anticommunism is the modus operandi of fascism in all its forms. The axis powers in WWII were formalized in the "Anti-Comintern Pact" to which Finland was a signatory.
Using something happened in 1918 and especially 1941 to justify calling Finland Nazi during Winter War that happened in 1939-40 seems fairly creative.
Interesting thing about the Civil War and Winter War though. After the Civil War Finland was heavily divided nation for a long time. And while the wounds had started to heal some, it was the opposition to the Soviet attack that actually brought the left and right together. I'm not sure how true it is, but I've heard Stalin expected the Finnish workers to celebrate him coming over and "freeing them" and was quite surprised that they were having none of that.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/10/world/europe/finnish-volunteers-very-likely-participated-in-killing-of-jews-in-wwii.html
That's again something that happened after Winter War. Official Finnish policy towards Jews was luckily much better during the war. Even resulted in funny things such as Nazis awarding a Finnish Jewish soldier the Iron Cross, which is just bizarre to think about.
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It would feel a bit strange to say Finland was Nazi during Winter War because during Continuation War Finland was Axis aligned when the USSR attack in Winter War is the biggest reason Finland sought closer ties with Germany.
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The USSR wanted Finland to give it areas including the main Finnish defensive line. Knowing what happened with Czechoslovakia and "just a few areas" and knowing what happened to Baltics, it's easy to see what road that would've taken Finland down on.
No, I'm saying Finland sought help from the Nazis because during Winter War Finland was left completely alone, the preferred alliance direction of Nordics or UK/France/US panning out to not have done much at all. And both sides, USSR and Finland knew it was just a temporarily truce and another war was coming. Obviously Finland didn't want to be alone, again.
Mostly the Finnish leadership were noted anglophiles.
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For sure. But both sides saw another war coming and with how close Finland was to being fully occupied, the worry was that this time Soviet Union wouldn't stop until they had achieved that. Understandable worry in my opinion, even though fighting alongside Nazis is a black mark on Finnish history.
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No I really meant that both sides knew that this wasn't over. Both considered it unfinished (heh) business.
The very same (or well, it had changed a bunch but still). Though the Soviet attempt to conquer Finland during Winter War, that had just happened, might've been a bit more prominent in peoples' minds than 1918.
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I don't think it was unavoidable, I hope it didn't come off like that. Generally there are three schools of thought about this. Historically the "drift wood" theory has been the most prominent one. It argued that Finland was drift food flowing in the rapids of world events. It argues that Finland just "drifted to Germany's side". It has been popular because Finland had to come to grips with what happened during WW2. And that theory was the copout, basically. "We didn't choose this, it just happened". It was basically the "official truth" for the longest time and even though professional historians abandoned the theory I think since the 70's, it has been the popular explanation among non-historians for the longest time, with it still being somewhat popular. Another theory (not very popular) was that Finland was the willing aggressor and had been seeking out Germany the whole time since independence and wanted to join Germany and jumped at the opportunity. This you can still see in more far-left circles and I think the idea is more popular abroad. It's been brought up here too. Then there's the theory that has since replaced driftwood theory, with a more nuanced and I think historically sound take. It argues that Finland wasn't a driftwood but more a "whitewater boat" I guess. The rapids of world events did influence Finland majorly, but there was also conscientious effort from Finnish side to seek closer ties with Germany. And that's the one I personally believe in. Finland didn't helplessly and unavoidably drift into an alliance with the Nazis, but rather it was influenced by what was happening around Finland, experience of being left alone during Winter War and how close to total defeat Finland was and fears about the unsettled business with Soviet Union. I think seeing all those factors, it's understandable from the POV of the leadership at the time (though not morally defensible) to see why Finland became Nazi Germany's ally.
Sorry for the long post.
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And offered more area in Karelia in return, it wasn't some kind of a one-sided deal
Area cutting through the Finnish main defensive line and an important peninsula and harbor close to Helsinki vs. areas in the middle of nowhere in Karelia. It wasn't a one-sided suggestion, in fact by area I think the offer was bigger, but it's easy to see why it wasn't accepted when you consider what would be given and where.