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something for you libs who still believe in electoralism
I'm prepared for the downvotes and support the revolution, but considering we don't currently have the left leadership in place to consolidate power doesnt it make sense to vote for Biden just to get a fascist out of office?
the problem is that there is no definition of fascist that includes Trump but excludes Biden, so really America currently has social fascism, not president will change that, heck even a bernie president would probably fight tooth and nail for some weak reforms that wouldnt achieve much.
really only way to get a little change in america is to organize against both republicans and democrats, and voting dems wont acomplish anything, because they like the social fascism, maybe not the racism but they like the surveillance, they like the corporatism and despotism, no dem would be allow to remove those things and I believe thats the problem with supporting not just the biden but the dems
If someone votes for Biden fine, I'm not going to tell someone not to do that. At the same time I don't think there is much value in trying to brow beat people who have legitimate objections to Biden from the left to vote for him. I'm of the opinion that we are actually setting ourselves up for a much worse scenario, but there is really no good option at this point. It's doesn't really matter, if I drop dead today the outcome of this election isn't going to change. I think a lot of the frusteration stems from presenting the ballot box where politics beings and ends. If we say voting works if enough of us collectively work together for a political project and use candidates to fufill that, I'm fine with that, but were not in that scenario right now.
doesnt it make sense to vote for Biden just to get a fascist out of office?
you get the fascist out of office for a time but the social phenomenon of fascism is going to stay and worsen, because biden represents what caused it in the first place, neoliberalism
the voting for harm reduction idea is really empty here because it ignores that the political environment emanates from actual material conditions, and if those don't change then fascism won't actually be affected at all
if you had an underwhelming candidate but that actually cared about meaningfully remedying material suffering, then sure, but that's not the case here
i know it's a horrible situation, but both choices here are going to accelerate american fascism
i've grown skeptical even of my 2018 vote for the PT, biden is even worse, zero hopes there
My issue isn't whether people should vote or not, but that the entire discussion around voting in the presidential race is inherently counter productive. Even if you consider the "harm reduction" arguments, we could be vastly more effective at reducing harm by focusing on other tactics outside of electoral politics, such as union organizing, tenant organizing, protests, boycotts, strikes, and generally building dual power. Even just a focus on local elections would do a lot more to protect ordinary people and improve their lives vs focusing on national race that will lead to harm either way.
The presidential race is a colossal waste of energy and potential, and that includes spending time supporting non-viable alternatives like PSL or Green Party, as good as their platforms may be. None of it will accomplish anything substantial, so why not shift our focus to areas we can actually make a difference in?
I'm glad you posted this because this was actually something I was thinking about a little more after I typed the above. I still stand by my statement that voting at all will change much of anything on a national scale, of course, but I do agree with you (and PSL) that running a campaign can at least be useful for building a broader movement. PSL does do a lot of good at the local level, and I suppose any public boost for them would assist in those efforts.
The Green Party, on the other hand, has never really shown a willingness to build a true grassroots movement, so I can't say the same about them, though I do think they have decent candidates and a good platform.
I'm prepared for the downvotes and support the revolution, but considering we don't currently have the left leadership in place to consolidate power doesnt it make sense to vote for Biden just to get a fascist out of office?
the problem is that there is no definition of fascist that includes Trump but excludes Biden, so really America currently has social fascism, not president will change that, heck even a bernie president would probably fight tooth and nail for some weak reforms that wouldnt achieve much.
really only way to get a little change in america is to organize against both republicans and democrats, and voting dems wont acomplish anything, because they like the social fascism, maybe not the racism but they like the surveillance, they like the corporatism and despotism, no dem would be allow to remove those things and I believe thats the problem with supporting not just the biden but the dems
:gold-communist:
If someone votes for Biden fine, I'm not going to tell someone not to do that. At the same time I don't think there is much value in trying to brow beat people who have legitimate objections to Biden from the left to vote for him. I'm of the opinion that we are actually setting ourselves up for a much worse scenario, but there is really no good option at this point. It's doesn't really matter, if I drop dead today the outcome of this election isn't going to change. I think a lot of the frusteration stems from presenting the ballot box where politics beings and ends. If we say voting works if enough of us collectively work together for a political project and use candidates to fufill that, I'm fine with that, but were not in that scenario right now.
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you get the fascist out of office for a time but the social phenomenon of fascism is going to stay and worsen, because biden represents what caused it in the first place, neoliberalism
the voting for harm reduction idea is really empty here because it ignores that the political environment emanates from actual material conditions, and if those don't change then fascism won't actually be affected at all
if you had an underwhelming candidate but that actually cared about meaningfully remedying material suffering, then sure, but that's not the case here
i know it's a horrible situation, but both choices here are going to accelerate american fascism
i've grown skeptical even of my 2018 vote for the PT, biden is even worse, zero hopes there
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PSL is on the ballot, and they have good organization if you want to not vote biden
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My issue isn't whether people should vote or not, but that the entire discussion around voting in the presidential race is inherently counter productive. Even if you consider the "harm reduction" arguments, we could be vastly more effective at reducing harm by focusing on other tactics outside of electoral politics, such as union organizing, tenant organizing, protests, boycotts, strikes, and generally building dual power. Even just a focus on local elections would do a lot more to protect ordinary people and improve their lives vs focusing on national race that will lead to harm either way.
The presidential race is a colossal waste of energy and potential, and that includes spending time supporting non-viable alternatives like PSL or Green Party, as good as their platforms may be. None of it will accomplish anything substantial, so why not shift our focus to areas we can actually make a difference in?
deleted by creator
I'm glad you posted this because this was actually something I was thinking about a little more after I typed the above. I still stand by my statement that voting at all will change much of anything on a national scale, of course, but I do agree with you (and PSL) that running a campaign can at least be useful for building a broader movement. PSL does do a lot of good at the local level, and I suppose any public boost for them would assist in those efforts.
The Green Party, on the other hand, has never really shown a willingness to build a true grassroots movement, so I can't say the same about them, though I do think they have decent candidates and a good platform.