• sooper_dooper_roofer [none/use name]
      ·
      1 year ago

      I used to think that Marx was overrated because I never needed to read him but holy shit it's clear that 95% of the populace cannot form coherent ideologies without being taught them

    • Dr. Jenkem@lemmy.blugatch.tube
      ·
      1 year ago

      Tankie usually refers to Marxism-Leninism (as well the ideologies that derived from it such as Maoism). But there are communist ideologies that don't derive from ML such as Orthodox Marxism, trotskyism, libertarian Marxism, bulshevism, etc.

      • ghost_of_faso2@lemmygrad.ml
        ·
        1 year ago

        Tankie usually refers to Marxism-Leninism

        no it usually refers to whatever the fuck the person posting it seems to think it is, there is not a coherent label for it.

        Orthodox Marxism, trotskyism, libertarian Marxism, bulshevism, etc.

        Oh cool, which societies use those?

        • Dr. Jenkem@lemmy.blugatch.tube
          ·
          1 year ago

          no it usually refers to whatever the fuck the person posting it seems to think it is, there is not a coherent label for it.

          Why are you letting libs define everything? You and I both know they're dumbasses and shouldn't be taken seriously.

          Oh cool, which societies use those?

          Anyone could have said the same to Marx about communism at any point in his life, as he died before the October revolution.

          • ghost_of_faso2@lemmygrad.ml
            ·
            1 year ago

            Anyone could have said the same to Marx about communism at any point in his life, as he died before the October revolution.

            the difference is you named a bunch of dead ideologies that will never be revived, ML is literally the only form of marxism still flourishing

              • ghost_of_faso2@lemmygrad.ml
                ·
                1 year ago

                how is that speculation, its material; Im only interested in ideologies with proven merit.

                Im willing to take a chance of a synthesis on a new idea, but it has to actually offer people something.

                • Dr. Jenkem@lemmy.blugatch.tube
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  It's speculation because you don't know what the future holds. And just because you're not interested in a particular ideology or don't think it has merit doesn't make it any less communist.

                  My only point is that words do in fact have meaning, Marxist-Leninism is not synonymous with communism. Therefore, one can be anti-tankie without being anti-communist.

                  • GarbageShoot [he/him]
                    ·
                    1 year ago

                    "Orthodox Marxists" can hardly be said to exist, because the classical formulation of Marxism has long been empirically refuted, hence the need for new schools. Even Luxembourgists are more respectable than "Orthodox Marxists".

                  • nat_turner_overdrive [he/him]
                    ·
                    1 year ago

                    Your position is idealist and neither rational nor good faith - don't expect others to meet you with merits your position lacks.

                      • ghost_of_faso2@lemmygrad.ml
                        ·
                        edit-2
                        1 year ago

                        Because you only advocate for ideas that dont exist in reality, and deride actually existing marxism as 'tankie', you can continue to advocate for idealist positions, but it requires you to build a coherent movement around it otherwise its just masterbation and contrarianism.

                      • nat_turner_overdrive [he/him]
                        ·
                        edit-2
                        1 year ago

                        That's not what you've done, though, is it? If you're unable to describe your own arguments, how can you possibly hope to engage with other people?

          • o_d [he/him]@lemmygrad.ml
            ·
            1 year ago

            Why are you letting libs define everything? You and I both know they're dumbasses and shouldn't be taken seriously.

            Yeah I'm sure everyone in the lemmyverse is using the word tankie to refer to those of us who support the 1956 Soviet intervention in Hungary /s

      • geikei [none/use name]
        ·
        1 year ago

        How would Trotskyism be any less "authoritarian" Than marxism leninism ? Also almost every claims on some level to be "orthodox marxist", lenin most of all and MLs as well

    • LittleLordLimerick@lemm.ee
      ·
      1 year ago

      Telling someone to read Marx to understand modern day socialism is like telling someone to read Newton to understand modern day physics tbh.

      • ghost_of_faso2@lemmygrad.ml
        ·
        edit-2
        1 year ago

        Newton to understand modern day physics

        I mean yeah, if you want to understand the devolopment of physics you are required to understand the foundations it was built on, this is basic study.

        Its like telling someone they should read the bible if they want to be christian, or telling someone they should read the instruction manual if they want to actually know what the terms they are using mean.

        • LittleLordLimerick@lemm.ee
          ·
          1 year ago

          Yeah, you should read Marx if you want to understand the historical development of socialist ideas, but if that’s where your reading ends, then your ideas are stuck in the past.

          Socialism isn’ta religious dogma that is inflexible and unchanging. It’s an intellectual idea that grows and becomes more refined over time.

      • axont [she/her, comrade/them]
        ·
        edit-2
        1 year ago

        Yeah, you're right. It's also important to read Lenin's works on imperialism to understand modern socialism. It's important to study Mao as well.