They often didn't name their male sons either, this wasn't really a sexism thing, more of a child mortality thing. They were pretty fucking awful though, the roman elite behaved like proto-incels, blaming women for all their problems while simultaneously expecting their wives to wait on them hand and foot and do everything for them.
Just throwing this on the pile: in the late Republic there was a shortage of female Romans as a result of sex-selective infanticide. Now, Rome is not the only civilization where this has happened, but it's really telling that their response was not to outlaw the killing of baby girls, but instead to make it legal for male citizens to marry female non-citizens.
Lol. Ancient Rome was waaaaaaay fucking worse. Mideval women didn't have it even close to great but Christianity was progressive as fuck compared to ancient Rome. Due to just a general lack of strong centralized power and smaller communities being the economic basis led to greater advantages for women because they provided quite a bit of necessary labor they could now withhold with greater ability what with the slave economy being more dried up. As bad as Christianity was for women over the time of its dominance, ancient Rome laps it twice easily. As I posted earlier, they didn't even give their daughters names.
Rome existed over a super long period of time, so there is some degree of variation but women were generally identified by a feminized version of their family name. That's why when looking at Roman history when women are mentioned you see a lot of the same name repeated. The Ancient World comprises of quite a lot more than Rome as well, they're right at the very tail end of what we'd call ancient, there's thousands of years of civilization prior to that and quite a few contemporary civilizations. As for the role of women in Rome, you can pretty much just Google it and you'll get alright results, the HBO Rome series does a decent job in that regard for drama and it's all generally super easy to find if you look for it. For a comparison to the mideval period, I'd check out the podcast We're Not So Different and search for related episodes. One of the hosts is an actual mideval scholar and has done a better job than me. Debt the First 5000 Years by Graebar covers the economic change between the times of slave empires and feudal/manorial rule, things got very regional during mideval times, centralized power was way down and most people's economic output was based more or less within their family and immediate community giving women a greater input just by pure material consequence but there being diminished institutional force in general also meant that these family or communal units were less bound by previous social contracts. The puritanical repression of women and in its more extreme and explicit form came post reformation and was more of an early modern period thing. It was still crazy fucking patriarchal but comparatively it was leaps and bounds beyond the Romans. Other ancient societies, thst kinds depends but that's worldwide over a 5000 year span
Your take on Christianity here is somewhat post mideval. Witch hunts and stakeholders burning were an early modern thing. As far as roman ideology goes, bear in mind that veneration of female deities doesn't mean a more egalitarian society. Roman religious practices and ideas of Gods and such isn't in the full on God is Good Christian idea, remember, they're THE GODS, they're fickle and weird, demand animal sacrifices and send signals through birds. It's viewing Roman art and religious figures through a Christianized and modernized lense. The amount that Roman or really even mideval trains of thought operate would appear totally alien to us and to inflict modern views can be a huge mistake in understanding the complexity of pre modern societies. Cultural and religious veneration of an idealized woman doesn't translate to better treatment of IRL women, look at anime fans. Also the Gods were the Gods, they aren't human and weren't seen as such despite masculine or feminine traits being applied to them, there was no Olympian Jesus who related gohood to humanity so to speak the Goss were alien to them and impossible to comprehend to an extent. It was a wholly wholly different way of looking at the world. There wasn't really a connection seen between treating their wives and daughters as just a bit above slaves and animals and having female deities, thats just how the Roman Braimworms worked. All societies have brainstorms, past and present.
The amount that Roman or really even mideval trains of thought operate would appear totally alien to us and to inflict modern views can be a huge mistake in understanding the complexity of pre modern societies
I completely disagree. Humans are humans and we've always been more or less the same. Every single thing I learn about history reinforces for me the idea that we have not significantly changed at any point in recorded history. The way we think and the way we act is the same.
The difference is that in Roman times, with few exceptions, women were fully and brazenly commodified. Women were the property of their families or husbands, and could be not only bought and sold but looted and stolen.
Christianity and feudal society was still oppressive towards women, of course, but codified a sort of patronizing chauvinism that did make life somewhat more bearable for women.
It's wrong to characterize the shift as one from gender egalitarianism to theocratic oppression. The shift was from complete objectification and subjugation towards a more codified, patronizing oppression
Ancient Rome was a really not awesome time or place to be a woman.
Even compared to its contemporaries. One of the stereotypes about Romans at the time was that they were incapable of loving their wives or children.
Romans are boomers confirmed.
They didn't bother naming their daughters. Romans were on a whole fucking level
They often didn't name their male sons either, this wasn't really a sexism thing, more of a child mortality thing. They were pretty fucking awful though, the roman elite behaved like proto-incels, blaming women for all their problems while simultaneously expecting their wives to wait on them hand and foot and do everything for them.
Just throwing this on the pile: in the late Republic there was a shortage of female Romans as a result of sex-selective infanticide. Now, Rome is not the only civilization where this has happened, but it's really telling that their response was not to outlaw the killing of baby girls, but instead to make it legal for male citizens to marry female non-citizens.
Male sons did get to end up with names however
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Lol. Ancient Rome was waaaaaaay fucking worse. Mideval women didn't have it even close to great but Christianity was progressive as fuck compared to ancient Rome. Due to just a general lack of strong centralized power and smaller communities being the economic basis led to greater advantages for women because they provided quite a bit of necessary labor they could now withhold with greater ability what with the slave economy being more dried up. As bad as Christianity was for women over the time of its dominance, ancient Rome laps it twice easily. As I posted earlier, they didn't even give their daughters names.
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Rome existed over a super long period of time, so there is some degree of variation but women were generally identified by a feminized version of their family name. That's why when looking at Roman history when women are mentioned you see a lot of the same name repeated. The Ancient World comprises of quite a lot more than Rome as well, they're right at the very tail end of what we'd call ancient, there's thousands of years of civilization prior to that and quite a few contemporary civilizations. As for the role of women in Rome, you can pretty much just Google it and you'll get alright results, the HBO Rome series does a decent job in that regard for drama and it's all generally super easy to find if you look for it. For a comparison to the mideval period, I'd check out the podcast We're Not So Different and search for related episodes. One of the hosts is an actual mideval scholar and has done a better job than me. Debt the First 5000 Years by Graebar covers the economic change between the times of slave empires and feudal/manorial rule, things got very regional during mideval times, centralized power was way down and most people's economic output was based more or less within their family and immediate community giving women a greater input just by pure material consequence but there being diminished institutional force in general also meant that these family or communal units were less bound by previous social contracts. The puritanical repression of women and in its more extreme and explicit form came post reformation and was more of an early modern period thing. It was still crazy fucking patriarchal but comparatively it was leaps and bounds beyond the Romans. Other ancient societies, thst kinds depends but that's worldwide over a 5000 year span
deleted by creator
Your take on Christianity here is somewhat post mideval. Witch hunts and stakeholders burning were an early modern thing. As far as roman ideology goes, bear in mind that veneration of female deities doesn't mean a more egalitarian society. Roman religious practices and ideas of Gods and such isn't in the full on God is Good Christian idea, remember, they're THE GODS, they're fickle and weird, demand animal sacrifices and send signals through birds. It's viewing Roman art and religious figures through a Christianized and modernized lense. The amount that Roman or really even mideval trains of thought operate would appear totally alien to us and to inflict modern views can be a huge mistake in understanding the complexity of pre modern societies. Cultural and religious veneration of an idealized woman doesn't translate to better treatment of IRL women, look at anime fans. Also the Gods were the Gods, they aren't human and weren't seen as such despite masculine or feminine traits being applied to them, there was no Olympian Jesus who related gohood to humanity so to speak the Goss were alien to them and impossible to comprehend to an extent. It was a wholly wholly different way of looking at the world. There wasn't really a connection seen between treating their wives and daughters as just a bit above slaves and animals and having female deities, thats just how the Roman Braimworms worked. All societies have brainstorms, past and present.
I completely disagree. Humans are humans and we've always been more or less the same. Every single thing I learn about history reinforces for me the idea that we have not significantly changed at any point in recorded history. The way we think and the way we act is the same.
Well...you're wrong
Nope
The difference is that in Roman times, with few exceptions, women were fully and brazenly commodified. Women were the property of their families or husbands, and could be not only bought and sold but looted and stolen.
Christianity and feudal society was still oppressive towards women, of course, but codified a sort of patronizing chauvinism that did make life somewhat more bearable for women.
It's wrong to characterize the shift as one from gender egalitarianism to theocratic oppression. The shift was from complete objectification and subjugation towards a more codified, patronizing oppression