Shortfalls in some of the military services' recruiting goals for fiscal year 2023 demonstrate the challenges that lie ahead for the all-volunteer force, the Defense Department's acting undersecretary
So the Wehrmacht was a Drafted army .. US Army is a Volunteer force ..
meaning acording to your logic ... Wehrmachtsoldiers is even more innocent !
lets reinstate "7deadlyFetishes" , ? or maybe we accept that you come with certain obligations into this world, and if you go on murdering other people for your Masters in a Foreign land , then it naturally follows that your "Non -Existance" is prefarable to your "Existance" (and here i include myself) .
They lose their "obligations " to you , ecause you decleared that you do not follow them yourself.
Theres no "eternal innocence"
The Bolsheviks agitated among the soldiers between Feb and Oct, winning the support of the Russian lower ranks of the army in Petrograd and Kronstadt, and elsewhere, was essential to the Bolsheviks seizing power. Radicalized Navy was crucial in Russia, but also it was the German Navy that basically began the German Revolution against the war credits voted for by the SPD. Burkina Faso, while I'm not yet as familiar with the history, was another example of the enlisted military splitting from the top ranks and seizing power to implement socialism.
I don't know what it would take to turn the American military away from imperialism and toward socialism, and I'm not in a position to argue for it. But your example of Wehrmacht soldiers is completely unmoored from what the person you were responding to was trying to get at. I've talked to people who served who have made good arguments for agitating within the military, and everyone I know who has actually been deployed to Iraq or Afghanistan (and there's def some selection bias here) is some flavor of anarchist/socialist.
"But Nazis tho" is not the level of criticism that will help us to build socialism. Relax.
I'm sorry but this is not a good comparison. The Russian Imperial Army and Navy were mostly lower class conscripts fighting in a traditional style with rifles and canons. The US military is all volunteer and uses tactics that rely on air superiority, advanced weaponry and intel gathering. Most people in the US military these days never get into an actual fire fight, or even ever see "the front". If you get recruited these days you're way more likely to get a job moving boxes in some base in Italy, playing Xbox in an air conditioned dorm in your free time, than hunkering down in a ditch with a rifle. I don't see what the left gains from recruiting some guy who piloted a drone while eating Doritos or drove a hummer around Kandahar for a year and maybe got shot at twice, both of whom are getting a full ride scholarship and a cheap home loan when they get out.
I literally said I wasn't arguing for agitating in the army, just that I've heard good arguments and I could imagine a confluence of historical conditions where it could become possible. My main point is not to jump down people's throats with debate-lordy indignation using examples that are irrelevant.
The Bolsheviks agitated among the soldiers between Feb and Oct, winning the support of the Russian lower ranks of the army in Petrograd and Kronstadt, and elsewhere, was essential to the Bolsheviks seizing power.
Radicalized Navy was crucial in Russia, but also it was the German Navy that basically began the German Revolution against the war credits voted for by the SPD. Burkina Faso, while I'm not yet as familiar with the history, > was another example of the enlisted military splitting from the top ranks and seizing power to implement socialism.
Those are Conscripted armies that are fighting in an inter imperalist war , reclaiming their innocents by revolution.
US Army is a Volunter Force used in Colonial Oppression ... it is less inncocent then a Conscripted Soldier . If you join it you have discared your obligation to your fellow man and have Puplicly decleared your intention to make Murder in the Colonies your Profession.
why would that be Innocent ? It just isnt.
"But Nazis tho" is not the level of criticism that will help us to build socialism.
you are literally discribing the People whos Job it is to "Kill Socialism" .. but no they are not your enemies ? But Nazis tho .
the greatest thing is , i dont even have to explain that , once we will build socialism , they gonna come themselfs to explain it to you ! its one of their primary service products.
I am not saying that agitating within the army is the path to socialism, I specifically said that I was not making that argument. I'm saying that it had been the path to socialism in specific historical contexts, and thinking about it is not akin to allying with Nazis. Stop trying to win a debate. We can have discussions.
The class character of the US military is pretty far off from the impression people have where only poor people join it for a better life, since it became a volunteer force. I'm glad you've met class traitors, not trying to invalidate what you're saying or say "it's on sight with anyone in the military" lol, people make mistakes.
It would be cool if people could go get trained by Cubans a la Angolan rebels 😸
https://hexbear.net/comment/4395565 <- obnoxious recursive linking to Adam Tooze (radlib) writing about modern US military being almost entirely deep south JROTC recruits
where have i said that they were innocent? every action we take has consequences, whether you evaluate and come to a conclusion or just accept it blindly. in either case we are not absolved of the consequences of our actions.
i'm saying that there is a context to this. it is deliberate that the easiest way out is recruitment for a serious number of people. if we want to make it easy to dissolve that entity, a very powerful way forward is to make the material conditions better for everyone.
“For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard. After agreeing with the laborers for a denarius for the day, he sent them into his vineyard. When he went out about nine o’clock, he saw others standing idle in the marketplace, and he said to them, ‘You also go into the vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.’ So they went. When he went out again about noon and about three o’clock, he did the same. And about five o’clock he went out and found others standing around, and he said to them, ‘Why are you standing here idle all day?’ They said to him, ‘Because no one has hired us.’ He said to them, ‘You also go into the vineyard.’ When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his manager, ‘Call the laborers and give them their pay, beginning with the last and then going to the first.’ When those hired about five o’clock came, each of them received a denarius. Now when the first came, they thought they would receive more; but each of them also received a denarius. And when they received it, they grumbled against the landowner, saying, ‘These last worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the day and the scorching heat.’ But he replied to one of them, ‘Friend, I am doing you no wrong; did you not agree with me for a denarius? Take what belongs to you and go; I choose to give to this last the same as I give to you. Am I not allowed to do what I choose with what belongs to me? Or are you envious because I am generous?’ So the last will be first, and the first will be last.”
— Matthew 20:1–16, New Revised Standard Version
I see it that way.
you get a full day Labour in gods vineyard. No matter if you laboured in it the hole day or just the evening hours. If you dont you will NOT get payed . (Fair: Labour is the source of all value).
EDIT (more explaination ): Somebody leaving the town to Opress other Towns , is most certanly not working in the Vineyard , and he will have little chances to be pickt up from the Market place . He will most certaily not get payed !
Somebody leaving the town to Opress other Towns , is most certanly not working in the Vineyard , and he will have little chances to be pickt up from the Market place . He will most certaily NOT get payed ! is current statues is - 1 dinary...
So the Wehrmacht was a Drafted army .. US Army is a Volunteer force ..
meaning acording to your logic ... Wehrmachtsoldiers is even more innocent ! lets reinstate "7deadlyFetishes" , ? or maybe we accept that you come with certain obligations into this world, and if you go on murdering other people for your Masters in a Foreign land , then it naturally follows that your "Non -Existance" is prefarable to your "Existance" (and here i include myself) . They lose their "obligations " to you , ecause you decleared that you do not follow them yourself. Theres no "eternal innocence"
The Bolsheviks agitated among the soldiers between Feb and Oct, winning the support of the Russian lower ranks of the army in Petrograd and Kronstadt, and elsewhere, was essential to the Bolsheviks seizing power. Radicalized Navy was crucial in Russia, but also it was the German Navy that basically began the German Revolution against the war credits voted for by the SPD. Burkina Faso, while I'm not yet as familiar with the history, was another example of the enlisted military splitting from the top ranks and seizing power to implement socialism.
I don't know what it would take to turn the American military away from imperialism and toward socialism, and I'm not in a position to argue for it. But your example of Wehrmacht soldiers is completely unmoored from what the person you were responding to was trying to get at. I've talked to people who served who have made good arguments for agitating within the military, and everyone I know who has actually been deployed to Iraq or Afghanistan (and there's def some selection bias here) is some flavor of anarchist/socialist.
"But Nazis tho" is not the level of criticism that will help us to build socialism. Relax.
I'm sorry but this is not a good comparison. The Russian Imperial Army and Navy were mostly lower class conscripts fighting in a traditional style with rifles and canons. The US military is all volunteer and uses tactics that rely on air superiority, advanced weaponry and intel gathering. Most people in the US military these days never get into an actual fire fight, or even ever see "the front". If you get recruited these days you're way more likely to get a job moving boxes in some base in Italy, playing Xbox in an air conditioned dorm in your free time, than hunkering down in a ditch with a rifle. I don't see what the left gains from recruiting some guy who piloted a drone while eating Doritos or drove a hummer around Kandahar for a year and maybe got shot at twice, both of whom are getting a full ride scholarship and a cheap home loan when they get out.
I literally said I wasn't arguing for agitating in the army, just that I've heard good arguments and I could imagine a confluence of historical conditions where it could become possible. My main point is not to jump down people's throats with debate-lordy indignation using examples that are irrelevant.
Theyre more likely to be duty stationed in Germany than Italy
Navy buddy got stationed in Naples so not uncommon
well that's the navy. nobody likes the puddle pirates
Those are Conscripted armies that are fighting in an inter imperalist war , reclaiming their innocents by revolution.
US Army is a Volunter Force used in Colonial Oppression ... it is less inncocent then a Conscripted Soldier . If you join it you have discared your obligation to your fellow man and have Puplicly decleared your intention to make Murder in the Colonies your Profession.
why would that be Innocent ? It just isnt.
you are literally discribing the People whos Job it is to "Kill Socialism" .. but no they are not your enemies ? But Nazis tho . the greatest thing is , i dont even have to explain that , once we will build socialism , they gonna come themselfs to explain it to you ! its one of their primary service products.
I am not saying that agitating within the army is the path to socialism, I specifically said that I was not making that argument. I'm saying that it had been the path to socialism in specific historical contexts, and thinking about it is not akin to allying with Nazis. Stop trying to win a debate. We can have discussions.
I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:
The class character of the US military is pretty far off from the impression people have where only poor people join it for a better life, since it became a volunteer force. I'm glad you've met class traitors, not trying to invalidate what you're saying or say "it's on sight with anyone in the military" lol, people make mistakes.
It would be cool if people could go get trained by Cubans a la Angolan rebels 😸
https://hexbear.net/comment/4395565 <- obnoxious recursive linking to Adam Tooze (radlib) writing about modern US military being almost entirely deep south JROTC recruits
I forgot about that guy. whatever happened to them?
we found out one of the fetishes ..
where have i said that they were innocent? every action we take has consequences, whether you evaluate and come to a conclusion or just accept it blindly. in either case we are not absolved of the consequences of our actions.
i'm saying that there is a context to this. it is deliberate that the easiest way out is recruitment for a serious number of people. if we want to make it easy to dissolve that entity, a very powerful way forward is to make the material conditions better for everyone.
“For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard. After agreeing with the laborers for a denarius for the day, he sent them into his vineyard. When he went out about nine o’clock, he saw others standing idle in the marketplace, and he said to them, ‘You also go into the vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.’ So they went. When he went out again about noon and about three o’clock, he did the same. And about five o’clock he went out and found others standing around, and he said to them, ‘Why are you standing here idle all day?’ They said to him, ‘Because no one has hired us.’ He said to them, ‘You also go into the vineyard.’ When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his manager, ‘Call the laborers and give them their pay, beginning with the last and then going to the first.’ When those hired about five o’clock came, each of them received a denarius. Now when the first came, they thought they would receive more; but each of them also received a denarius. And when they received it, they grumbled against the landowner, saying, ‘These last worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the day and the scorching heat.’ But he replied to one of them, ‘Friend, I am doing you no wrong; did you not agree with me for a denarius? Take what belongs to you and go; I choose to give to this last the same as I give to you. Am I not allowed to do what I choose with what belongs to me? Or are you envious because I am generous?’ So the last will be first, and the first will be last.”
— Matthew 20:1–16, New Revised Standard Version
I see it that way. you get a full day Labour in gods vineyard. No matter if you laboured in it the hole day or just the evening hours. If you dont you will NOT get payed . (Fair: Labour is the source of all value).
EDIT (more explaination ): Somebody leaving the town to Opress other Towns , is most certanly not working in the Vineyard , and he will have little chances to be pickt up from the Market place . He will most certaily not get payed !
Dont wanna preach in Latin here .
I'm gonna bully you with a bit of Marx's Gothe and say lol no but whut about nature tho
bring it to me , not using labour or bring me to it not using labour..
Was? Das macht auf Englisch keinen Sinn.
bring mir die früchte der Natur, aber ohne arbeit , oder lass mich die Natur genießen , aber ohne arbeit .
geht nicht , braucht auch arbeit , und sei es nur das Schuhwerk... so ungefähr. ?
I think I get what you're saying now