Weird, I figured it out as a teenager and then watched the supreme court appoint a president who started a multidecade war that pretty much all of team blue was into as well. That was followed by even more neocons who continued where he left off and bailed out the banks. Now the same fucking people are literally arming a genocide and attacking anyone who tries to get in the way.
How are you convinced by that performance that voting was the right call???
You're talking about electoralism when this is an issue where the vast majority of voters have nobody to vote for that actually aligns with their interests. Do you vote for Biden the senile Zionist or Trump the deranged Zionist?
You want to work within the system? Make a billion dollars doing something morally depraved and bribe the politcians yourself. It's just as unrealistic as voooooting your way to progress and more effective.
That's why in nature all organism live forever instead of creating an entirely new organism to propagate their genetic line. Why waste all the resources on reproduction when you can make the original organism live forever. It's that simple!
Your attempts at sounding smug just make me feel bad for you. You're like the verbal version of those robots that can barely walk getting hit with sticks over and over again and struggling to stand back up. Go back to reddit. You're clearly distressed by the fact that you've stepped outside your echo chamber.
99% of the time poorly socialized r*dditors like you make up the majority and people like us are the minority. It's pretty obvious that this is the first time you've ever been anything other than the majority and it's very distressing to you.
You: "I disagree with Ogodei Khan's's policies and the Mongol Empire is collapsing on multiple fronts, if only we declare Kublai Khan the Great Khan at the Kurultai then the true will of the people will prevail and the empire will be cured!"
This is the root of the issue that has allowed the current system to be so corrupt
The system is not corrupt. The system in the US is working 100% as intended. The root of the system is capitalism. This us what living under capital is. You can't change anything unless you understand the problem.
You want to blame the least powerful people in society for not ing hard enough, instead of looking first at the most obvious thing we should consider - how all resources are extracted, produced, and distributed in society and what that means for evetything else
Hey there, I'm guessing you're new to posting on this instance it looks like you're running afoul of our Posting Policy Bulletin. If you'd like I can explain it to you?
This is what I don’t understand with people like you. The upper class holds all the cards and shits on everyone else, but supposedly it’s the lower classes fault for being shit on? Why is it their fault?
If we can’t even decide on basic shit like “is the earth warming at a rate that is hostile to life” how are we supposed to form a new cohesive government? It’s going to be hard enough electing decent people to any structure you can think of.
You yourself are making our point for why liberal democracy cannot fix itself. We can't form a "cohesive government" as you say within this system. That's why its necessary for this system to end.
You will never be able to elect "decent people" because you, us, the people do not have a say in who they get to vote for. This government does not exist for us, and it is not a democracy for us. And it never will be, until the power of capital is broken
how are you going to protect this revolution from the next one?
There's an entire intellectual tradition about this called Marxism-Leninism. There are successful Marxist-Leninist governments that exist right now, including the largest nation on earth. We aren't aren't talking about a fantasy here, there is is over a hundred years of paractice and two hundred of theory, if you're interested in our worldview
As you said, the government doesn’t work for us. I don’t know of any structure that truly does
Liberal democracy does not work for us - as in the people who are not in the ruling class. That isn't because of some immutable characteristic of all governments, it is by the design of the US government and all liberal democracies.
They were designed by and to work to the benefit of the ruling class - capitalists. That's why it doesn't work for us. Thats the key element and that's what we advocate for a change of. The only way to change things in through class struggle - and placing power in the hands of our class.
But the alternative is anarchy, and that’s not going to work either.
We have anarchists here and we keep the place non-sectarian. MLs would agree but not for the same reasons as you. Our disagreement is that we need the power of a state to safeguard the gains of a revolution against the global capitalist class and their state forces. Anarchists have a different view, but they understand the importance of revolutionary class struggle and disagreements aside, their theory of change is infinitely more grounded in reality than yours
China is the most obvious one, but Cuba, DPRK, Vietnam, the USSR did very well until it lost its conflict with the US.
You're probably going to say some dumb shit like China isnt really communist, which shows you don't know what you're talking about, or maybe some other westoid propaganda talking point about muh authoritarianism. If that's what you've got don't bother.
You probably don't consider these countries "successful" for some reason based on US propaganda. Great, we've all heard it and know its bullshit.
If you want to pretend that China is not currently the most successful nation on earth, the world's largest democracy, and led by a Marxist Leninist party, cool. Most of the west likes to pretend that shit to. It doesn't change reality, and no one here wants to hear about your lib fantasy world
Corruption is a fundamental problem of any system of governance, and it reaches a point where the only route to defeat it is to kill the fucking cheats who set it up.
Voting is nit going to fix a system that has intentionally broken voting to invalidate you. Only revolution can do that.
Okay, so we're in the same place. Replacing the current system with something better may get corrupted, but so may status quo. So has status quo.
We don't want revolution because we think everything would perfect and incorruptible in that future, but because a fresh start affords us aon opportunity to reflect upon our foundational mistakes and do build something great from the ground up.
And this is how it works with any project. Sometimes the movie isnt coming together and fixing costs more than starting over. Sometimes your drawing has fundamental issues that can't be fixed by small tweaks, and entire sections or pieces need to be cleared or restarted afresh.
Trying to fix this system certainly is a thing you can try, and many people here have. I spent 35-odd years of my life as a diehard Democrat. I caucused locally and helped my mayor get elected. I didn't come to my position today from a lack of consideration. I think we'd all prefer this shit to be fixed as easily as possible, and no good marxist is under the impression that revolutions are simple, painless things to attempt.
Being liberal is about keeping an open mind, yeah? Like openmindedness is a central principle to modern liberal political philosophy. Keep that energy. Let your mind be open to what the left suggests. I'm not under the impression I can talk you into leftism, but it doesnt hurt you to consider what the left has to offer to your personal philosophy
What's sad is that you think you're the one being realistic, when your theory of change is complete fantasy.
What we're talking about has been done and accomplished before and exists in the real world, including the largest nation on earth. What you're talking about has never happened
The Soviet Union lasted for decades and at the time was on the cutting edge of science, math, industry, social sciences etc and became the second leading superpower only 20 years after forming. Pretty successful if you ask me. It took the US over 100 years to do anything similar.
Then there’s China which is looking to be even more successful than that.
People are clowning on you because of the naive electoralism and because you come from a instance but you're not completely wrong. You just need to go a step further and realize that what the system is doing now is what it was designed to do. Working within it is not going to get you anywhere. Also the guy you're replying to is joking.
You just need to go a step further and realize that what the system is doing now is what it was designed to do
That's the key thing with all well meaning lib arguements. They believe their system is broken, when in fact its working perfectly and it was never their system to begin with
Thats how liberal democracy is intended to work you fucking lib shit!!!!!!
That's what i just said and you read and you still don't get it, because you don't have a fucking clue what you're talking about
echo chamber
No communist in the west lives in an echo chamber. We hear your view - the fatalistic lib, capitalist realism veiw everywhere. You literally live in an echo chamber - its called the US, the most propagandized nation on earth
I have no clue what any of that means. I think its some kind of nerd way to say "no u" with a little emoji to show how not big mad you are right now. Go back to reddit
You ever notice how maybe only a handful of countries have ever reformed their way out of corruption and tyranny in human history, but a vast majority of nations have had a better chance at that through revolution?
I don’t need to convince you of my point history shows us that when the chips are down for the masses, the best way to stop it is to start lobbing off upper class heads. You’re the one that has to convince the rest of us that it isn’t necessary and that the upper class would willingly allow us to out vote them.
The software you're using was written by a communist lmao. Lemmy was just us and Lemmygrad/lemmy.ml for years before you rddit NPCs decided to freak out over some rddit bullshit and make a thousand reddit clones. Now every once in a while we get to see you basement dwellers accidentally walk outside your echo chamber and freak out.
Congress functions to serve the owner class and has for its entire existence. It started out serving, exclusively, white land-owning men as part of a slave nation.
It will not do anything else, ever. It is baked in and will only stop doing so when the owner class itself is subjugated, something that will only happen via revolution. It would be nice if that wasn't necessary and the ruling class could just let their power get voted out, but we don't have the luxury of such fantasies.
The only fix? Voting harder? You're really tipping your hand when it comes to your total lack of imagination or investment in actually improving things.
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I can think of a better fix
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Palestinians should just vote out the Israelis tbqh.
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The fact that they're right helps, i suppose
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I'm over here stroking my ego got lotion on my ego right now I'm just stroking my shit I'm horny as fuck man I'm a freak man like
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Whataboutism? What about deez nuts?
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I can't believed a seasoned redditor like you would just do a whataboutism like that, we're talking about how fucked taco sizes are in amerikkka
I think you are lying about my country, American.
oh shit noooo don't clown on China we'll shit our pants!
Its our ego comrade
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If you want to be right all the time too, we have book recommendations!
Parenti: Blackshirts and Reds: https://archive.org/details/michael-parenti-blackshirts-and-reds
Engels: Principles of Communism https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/11/prin-com.htm
Lenin: State and Revolution https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1917/staterev/
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Good luck
ing harder then
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Weird, I figured it out as a teenager and then watched the supreme court appoint a president who started a multidecade war that pretty much all of team blue was into as well. That was followed by even more neocons who continued where he left off and bailed out the banks. Now the same fucking people are literally arming a genocide and attacking anyone who tries to get in the way.
How are you convinced by that performance that voting was the right call???
Unironically I will lmfao.
You're talking about electoralism when this is an issue where the vast majority of voters have nobody to vote for that actually aligns with their interests. Do you vote for Biden the senile Zionist or Trump the deranged Zionist?
You want to work within the system? Make a billion dollars doing something morally depraved and bribe the politcians yourself. It's just as unrealistic as voooooting your way to progress and more effective.
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Bernie is a Zionist too lmao.
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I'm right here.
You’re the one who voted for Bernie so yeah I assume.
I remember believing that. Then I saw the Democratic party cheat and gaslight the public into thinking theres any real democracy in their primary.
It's Joever, dude. Democracy is dead
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That's an assumption you've made, and its not factual. It's a supposition of fact that you shpuld treat with appropriate skepticism
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That's why in nature all organism live forever instead of creating an entirely new organism to propagate their genetic line. Why waste all the resources on reproduction when you can make the original organism live forever. It's that simple!
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Your attempts at sounding smug just make me feel bad for you. You're like the verbal version of those robots that can barely walk getting hit with sticks over and over again and struggling to stand back up. Go back to reddit. You're clearly distressed by the fact that you've stepped outside your echo chamber.
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99% of the time poorly socialized r*dditors like you make up the majority and people like us are the minority. It's pretty obvious that this is the first time you've ever been anything other than the majority and it's very distressing to you.
Yes, that’s why everyone in this thread is explaining to you why that’s bad.
Capital. The answer is always kapital.
You: "I disagree with Ogodei Khan's's policies and the Mongol Empire is collapsing on multiple fronts, if only we declare Kublai Khan the Great Khan at the Kurultai then the true will of the people will prevail and the empire will be cured!"
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There is no difference between good things and bad things you imbecile, you fucking moron
You've got it. Just
harder lib
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Which is why we need to do a slow incrementalism by voting?
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Let me paraphrase what you said for you:
"I will eat shit forever because the people forcefeeding me shit taught me that any alternative involves me eating shit AND drinking piss"
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Our only goal is to piss you off personally, and we're doing a damn fine job
I'm on board with it. Sounds like a you problem
And this is achieved through voting how? We need a radical in the white house by november.
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The system is not corrupt. The system in the US is working 100% as intended. The root of the system is capitalism. This us what living under capital is. You can't change anything unless you understand the problem.
You want to blame the least powerful people in society for not
ing hard enough, instead of looking first at the most obvious thing we should consider - how all resources are extracted, produced, and distributed in society and what that means for evetything else
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Clearly the least powerful people need to just
really, really hard.
Go fuck yourself you dipshit
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Unlike you, a true paragon of discourse
Hey there, I'm guessing you're new to posting on this instance it looks like you're running afoul of our Posting Policy Bulletin. If you'd like I can explain it to you?
Why did you completely disregard their point about capitalism? Also how does your point NOT mean the solution is obviously revolution?
This is what I don’t understand with people like you. The upper class holds all the cards and shits on everyone else, but supposedly it’s the lower classes fault for being shit on? Why is it their fault?
You yourself are making our point for why liberal democracy cannot fix itself. We can't form a "cohesive government" as you say within this system. That's why its necessary for this system to end.
You will never be able to elect "decent people" because you, us, the people do not have a say in who they get to vote for. This government does not exist for us, and it is not a democracy for us. And it never will be, until the power of capital is broken
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There's an entire intellectual tradition about this called Marxism-Leninism. There are successful Marxist-Leninist governments that exist right now, including the largest nation on earth. We aren't aren't talking about a fantasy here, there is is over a hundred years of paractice and two hundred of theory, if you're interested in our worldview
Liberal democracy does not work for us - as in the people who are not in the ruling class. That isn't because of some immutable characteristic of all governments, it is by the design of the US government and all liberal democracies.
They were designed by and to work to the benefit of the ruling class - capitalists. That's why it doesn't work for us. Thats the key element and that's what we advocate for a change of. The only way to change things in through class struggle - and placing power in the hands of our class.
We have anarchists here and we keep the place non-sectarian. MLs would agree but not for the same reasons as you. Our disagreement is that we need the power of a state to safeguard the gains of a revolution against the global capitalist class and their state forces. Anarchists have a different view, but they understand the importance of revolutionary class struggle and disagreements aside, their theory of change is infinitely more grounded in reality than yours
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China is the most obvious one, but Cuba, DPRK, Vietnam, the USSR did very well until it lost its conflict with the US.
You're probably going to say some dumb shit like China isnt really communist, which shows you don't know what you're talking about, or maybe some other westoid propaganda talking point about muh authoritarianism. If that's what you've got don't bother.
You probably don't consider these countries "successful" for some reason based on US propaganda. Great, we've all heard it and know its bullshit.
If you want to pretend that China is not currently the most successful nation on earth, the world's largest democracy, and led by a Marxist Leninist party, cool. Most of the west likes to pretend that shit to. It doesn't change reality, and no one here wants to hear about your lib fantasy world
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Socialism is democratic dumbass. Its not liberal democracy - its people's democracy.
Because you libs all say the same dumb shit
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Lmao you're a living meme
Bet they've never heard this before, heh
Tianemen... Square??? Is that something from geometry, like a rhombus? Never heard of it.
Crony capitalism is the problem? Well yeah when you put it like that its like real capitalism hasn't even been tried! You're a genius.
Never would have heard these unique perspectives living in the US
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So brave :liberalism:
This is a classic example of "no investigation, no right to speak." You don't know what you're talking about
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In this moment I am euphoric
Took the words right out of my mouth!
Please, stop lying about a country that you don't know.
Corruption is a fundamental problem of any system of governance, and it reaches a point where the only route to defeat it is to kill the fucking cheats who set it up.
Voting is nit going to fix a system that has intentionally broken voting to invalidate you. Only revolution can do that.
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Why bother trying to do anything ever if everything we do is doomed?
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Okay, so we're in the same place. Replacing the current system with something better may get corrupted, but so may status quo. So has status quo.
We don't want revolution because we think everything would perfect and incorruptible in that future, but because a fresh start affords us aon opportunity to reflect upon our foundational mistakes and do build something great from the ground up.
And this is how it works with any project. Sometimes the movie isnt coming together and fixing costs more than starting over. Sometimes your drawing has fundamental issues that can't be fixed by small tweaks, and entire sections or pieces need to be cleared or restarted afresh.
Trying to fix this system certainly is a thing you can try, and many people here have. I spent 35-odd years of my life as a diehard Democrat. I caucused locally and helped my mayor get elected. I didn't come to my position today from a lack of consideration. I think we'd all prefer this shit to be fixed as easily as possible, and no good marxist is under the impression that revolutions are simple, painless things to attempt.
Being liberal is about keeping an open mind, yeah? Like openmindedness is a central principle to modern liberal political philosophy. Keep that energy. Let your mind be open to what the left suggests. I'm not under the impression I can talk you into leftism, but it doesnt hurt you to consider what the left has to offer to your personal philosophy
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What's sad is that you think you're the one being realistic, when your theory of change is complete fantasy.
What we're talking about has been done and accomplished before and exists in the real world, including the largest nation on earth. What you're talking about has never happened
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People's Republic of China. Worlds largest democracy. Largest manufacturing nation - poised to be world's largest economy. Seems pretty successful
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Communism is democratic. The USSR, Cuba, Vietnam, China all have democracy. If you knew what you were talking about you would know that.
Can you name an example of capitalism working
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https://archive.org/details/HumanRightsInTheSovietUnion/page/n75/mode/2up
The Soviet Union lasted for decades and at the time was on the cutting edge of science, math, industry, social sciences etc and became the second leading superpower only 20 years after forming. Pretty successful if you ask me. It took the US over 100 years to do anything similar.
Then there’s China which is looking to be even more successful than that.
"Who am I supposed to vote for Ben, Aquaman?"
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Sure. Get back to me on how that works out.
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Lmao ok, what is that even supposed to mean
They're all bloodthirsty zionists and neocons
People are clowning on you because of the naive electoralism and because you come from a
instance but you're not completely wrong. You just need to go a step further and realize that what the system is doing now is what it was designed to do. Working within it is not going to get you anywhere. Also the guy you're replying to is joking.
That's the key thing with all well meaning lib arguements. They believe their system is broken, when in fact its working perfectly and it was never their system to begin with
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Thats how liberal democracy is intended to work you fucking lib shit!!!!!!
That's what i just said and you read and you still don't get it, because you don't have a fucking clue what you're talking about
No communist in the west lives in an echo chamber. We hear your view - the fatalistic lib, capitalist realism veiw everywhere. You literally live in an echo chamber - its called the US, the most propagandized nation on earth
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I have no clue what any of that means. I think its some kind of nerd way to say "no u" with a little emoji to show how not big mad you are right now. Go back to reddit
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You ever notice how maybe only a handful of countries have ever reformed their way out of corruption and tyranny in human history, but a vast majority of nations have had a better chance at that through revolution?
I don’t need to convince you of my point history shows us that when the chips are down for the masses, the best way to stop it is to start lobbing off upper class heads. You’re the one that has to convince the rest of us that it isn’t necessary and that the upper class would willingly allow us to out vote them.
new site tag
To the dunk-tank, lib.
Damn I really thought we could have saved this one 😔
🎶Don’t save her, she don’t wanna be saved, don’t save her she don’t wanna be saved🎶
Dont worry comrade ill make sure to vote for Hillary Clinton in this election since you people got mad at me for not doing so in 2016
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The software you're using was written by a communist lmao. Lemmy was just us and Lemmygrad/lemmy.ml for years before you rddit NPCs decided to freak out over some rddit bullshit and make a thousand reddit clones. Now every once in a while we get to see you basement dwellers accidentally walk outside your echo chamber and freak out.
15 liberals that couldn't put an original thought together to save their lives.
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^ you right now.
three (3) replies
Get a load of this lib.
Congress functions to serve the owner class and has for its entire existence. It started out serving, exclusively, white land-owning men as part of a slave nation.
It will not do anything else, ever. It is baked in and will only stop doing so when the owner class itself is subjugated, something that will only happen via revolution. It would be nice if that wasn't necessary and the ruling class could just let their power get voted out, but we don't have the luxury of such fantasies.
The only fix? Voting harder? You're really tipping your hand when it comes to your total lack of imagination or investment in actually improving things.
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