Orrrrrrr we can just participate in our electoral process more and be more aware of who the people we cast votes for and what they’re beholden to, but that’s not sexy enough for hexbear users.
Do whatever you want dude. You can cum harder than the Chinese government cracking down on its people, but it won’t make you any more right or prove any point here.
No thanks I went over this already as a teenager and thought it was the right way forward too, then I grew up and realized on paper just about any system sounds like a good idea!
Weird, I figured it out as a teenager and then watched the supreme court appoint a president who started a multidecade war that pretty much all of team blue was into as well. That was followed by even more neocons who continued where he left off and bailed out the banks. Now the same fucking people are literally arming a genocide and attacking anyone who tries to get in the way.
How are you convinced by that performance that voting was the right call???
You're talking about electoralism when this is an issue where the vast majority of voters have nobody to vote for that actually aligns with their interests. Do you vote for Biden the senile Zionist or Trump the deranged Zionist?
You want to work within the system? Make a billion dollars doing something morally depraved and bribe the politcians yourself. It's just as unrealistic as voooooting your way to progress and more effective.
Yeah I don’t really care about party politics so I’m not going to go further into what x or y party does, I’m just saying between engaging in a flawed system and replacing it with another system it will always be easier to engage in what already exists.
It’s not an assumption it’s literally how basically everything in this universe works.
It’s generally easier to fix something than completely redo it. Less materials, less energy expenditure, less time.
I can use whatever analogy you want but the fact is it would be much easier to get more active in local politics and make a positive change that way than tear the whole system down and hope it doesn’t fall victim to the same power-hungry tyrants in another form.
That's why in nature all organism live forever instead of creating an entirely new organism to propagate their genetic line. Why waste all the resources on reproduction when you can make the original organism live forever. It's that simple!
Your attempts at sounding smug just make me feel bad for you. You're like the verbal version of those robots that can barely walk getting hit with sticks over and over again and struggling to stand back up. Go back to reddit. You're clearly distressed by the fact that you've stepped outside your echo chamber.
lol the difference is I actually try and gain outside perspective while you stay here in your safe instance to troll anyone who dares have a different opinion.
Which I’m sure is exactly how the powers that be want us to view each other, rather than as peers.
If you actually gave as much of a shit as you and your fellow hexbear users seem to have upon first glance you would have noticed already.
99% of the time poorly socialized r*dditors like you make up the majority and people like us are the minority. It's pretty obvious that this is the first time you've ever been anything other than the majority and it's very distressing to you.
You: "I disagree with Ogodei Khan's's policies and the Mongol Empire is collapsing on multiple fronts, if only we declare Kublai Khan the Great Khan at the Kurultai then the true will of the people will prevail and the empire will be cured!"
I mean it’s that or burn it all down, and at our current rate of economic and ecological breakdown we don’t really have the time or resources to form a better structure.
It’s much more economical for example, to repair the climate than it would be to terraform another planet. At a much smaller scale, it’s easier to fix the system than replace it.
If we can’t even decide on basic shit like “is the earth warming at a rate that is hostile to life” or “is Taylor Swift a psyop” how are we supposed to form a new cohesive government? It’s going to be hard enough electing decent people to any structure you can think of.
I’m on board for anything better that we can realistically accomplish in the next decade that can guarantee long term prosperity for the people and also is not subject to greedy and power-hungry officials.
Better engagement in the voting process by the voting public, for a start.
Unfortunately too many Americans either pay no attention to our political system, are misled enough on its operations, or are too complacent or depressed to care.
This is the root of the issue that has allowed the current system to be so corrupt, and regardless of governmental structure this is what needs to be solved before anything else.
This is the root of the issue that has allowed the current system to be so corrupt
The system is not corrupt. The system in the US is working 100% as intended. The root of the system is capitalism. This us what living under capital is. You can't change anything unless you understand the problem.
You want to blame the least powerful people in society for not ing hard enough, instead of looking first at the most obvious thing we should consider - how all resources are extracted, produced, and distributed in society and what that means for evetything else
Corruption is the system. The system is working as intended.
Corruption is also the problem.
Are you having that much trouble understanding?
The powers that be exist only because we allow them to. So yes, I blame the people for not being more aware of what’s going on and voicing their outrage of it.
Let’s move on to something more constructive please. What do you propose as a solution?
Hey there, I'm guessing you're new to posting on this instance it looks like you're running afoul of our Posting Policy Bulletin. If you'd like I can explain it to you?
This is what I don’t understand with people like you. The upper class holds all the cards and shits on everyone else, but supposedly it’s the lower classes fault for being shit on? Why is it their fault?
If we can’t even decide on basic shit like “is the earth warming at a rate that is hostile to life” how are we supposed to form a new cohesive government? It’s going to be hard enough electing decent people to any structure you can think of.
You yourself are making our point for why liberal democracy cannot fix itself. We can't form a "cohesive government" as you say within this system. That's why its necessary for this system to end.
You will never be able to elect "decent people" because you, us, the people do not have a say in who they get to vote for. This government does not exist for us, and it is not a democracy for us. And it never will be, until the power of capital is broken
When your way has been implemented, and the system is overthrown, and all is just and fair, how are you going to protect this revolution from the next one?
As you said, the government doesn’t work for us. I don’t know of any structure that truly does because they all rely on those given power to use it responsibly and relinquish it eventually, which will always be subject to corruption.
But the alternative is anarchy, and that’s not going to work either.
how are you going to protect this revolution from the next one?
There's an entire intellectual tradition about this called Marxism-Leninism. There are successful Marxist-Leninist governments that exist right now, including the largest nation on earth. We aren't aren't talking about a fantasy here, there is is over a hundred years of paractice and two hundred of theory, if you're interested in our worldview
As you said, the government doesn’t work for us. I don’t know of any structure that truly does
Liberal democracy does not work for us - as in the people who are not in the ruling class. That isn't because of some immutable characteristic of all governments, it is by the design of the US government and all liberal democracies.
They were designed by and to work to the benefit of the ruling class - capitalists. That's why it doesn't work for us. Thats the key element and that's what we advocate for a change of. The only way to change things in through class struggle - and placing power in the hands of our class.
But the alternative is anarchy, and that’s not going to work either.
We have anarchists here and we keep the place non-sectarian. MLs would agree but not for the same reasons as you. Our disagreement is that we need the power of a state to safeguard the gains of a revolution against the global capitalist class and their state forces. Anarchists have a different view, but they understand the importance of revolutionary class struggle and disagreements aside, their theory of change is infinitely more grounded in reality than yours
China is the most obvious one, but Cuba, DPRK, Vietnam, the USSR did very well until it lost its conflict with the US.
You're probably going to say some dumb shit like China isnt really communist, which shows you don't know what you're talking about, or maybe some other westoid propaganda talking point about muh authoritarianism. If that's what you've got don't bother.
You probably don't consider these countries "successful" for some reason based on US propaganda. Great, we've all heard it and know its bullshit.
If you want to pretend that China is not currently the most successful nation on earth, the world's largest democracy, and led by a Marxist Leninist party, cool. Most of the west likes to pretend that shit to. It doesn't change reality, and no one here wants to hear about your lib fantasy world
Corruption is a fundamental problem of any system of governance, and it reaches a point where the only route to defeat it is to kill the fucking cheats who set it up.
Voting is nit going to fix a system that has intentionally broken voting to invalidate you. Only revolution can do that.
Okay, so we're in the same place. Replacing the current system with something better may get corrupted, but so may status quo. So has status quo.
We don't want revolution because we think everything would perfect and incorruptible in that future, but because a fresh start affords us aon opportunity to reflect upon our foundational mistakes and do build something great from the ground up.
And this is how it works with any project. Sometimes the movie isnt coming together and fixing costs more than starting over. Sometimes your drawing has fundamental issues that can't be fixed by small tweaks, and entire sections or pieces need to be cleared or restarted afresh.
Trying to fix this system certainly is a thing you can try, and many people here have. I spent 35-odd years of my life as a diehard Democrat. I caucused locally and helped my mayor get elected. I didn't come to my position today from a lack of consideration. I think we'd all prefer this shit to be fixed as easily as possible, and no good marxist is under the impression that revolutions are simple, painless things to attempt.
Being liberal is about keeping an open mind, yeah? Like openmindedness is a central principle to modern liberal political philosophy. Keep that energy. Let your mind be open to what the left suggests. I'm not under the impression I can talk you into leftism, but it doesnt hurt you to consider what the left has to offer to your personal philosophy
What's sad is that you think you're the one being realistic, when your theory of change is complete fantasy.
What we're talking about has been done and accomplished before and exists in the real world, including the largest nation on earth. What you're talking about has never happened
Well, the US has a form of capitalism that has led to as much success as any other system in that it has allowed more of its people to be more prosperous for longer than any other system in history, but I wouldn’t exactly say it’s “working”.
By that definition no system does, and none will without substantially better active engagement by the people in electoral processes and complete accountability in elected officials to do the job they were hired to do.
The Soviet Union lasted for decades and at the time was on the cutting edge of science, math, industry, social sciences etc and became the second leading superpower only 20 years after forming. Pretty successful if you ask me. It took the US over 100 years to do anything similar.
Then there’s China which is looking to be even more successful than that.
I can think of a better fix
Orrrrrrr we can just participate in our electoral process more and be more aware of who the people we cast votes for and what they’re beholden to, but that’s not sexy enough for hexbear users.
Palestinians should just vote out the Israelis tbqh.
Yes, choose an unrelated matter in an attempt to disprove this statement.
Whatever you gotta do to feel right, I suppose.
The fact that they're right helps, i suppose
Yeah buddy, you stroke that ego.
I'm over here stroking my ego got lotion on my ego right now I'm just stroking my shit I'm horny as fuck man I'm a freak man like
Do whatever you want dude. You can cum harder than the Chinese government cracking down on its people, but it won’t make you any more right or prove any point here.
Are all hexbear users trolls or just you?
Whataboutism? What about deez nuts?
That’s not what whataboutism is my god hexbear users are the worst.
Titties.
I can't believed a seasoned redditor like you would just do a whataboutism like that, we're talking about how fucked taco sizes are in amerikkka
oh shit noooo don't clown on China we'll shit our pants!
I think you are lying about my country, American.
Its our ego comrade
My b for commenting on a hexbear post I suppose. Have fun being right all the time.
If you want to be right all the time too, we have book recommendations!
Parenti: Blackshirts and Reds: https://archive.org/details/michael-parenti-blackshirts-and-reds
Engels: Principles of Communism https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/11/prin-com.htm
Lenin: State and Revolution https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1917/staterev/
No thanks I went over this already as a teenager and thought it was the right way forward too, then I grew up and realized on paper just about any system sounds like a good idea!
Good luck
ing harder then
K
Weird, I figured it out as a teenager and then watched the supreme court appoint a president who started a multidecade war that pretty much all of team blue was into as well. That was followed by even more neocons who continued where he left off and bailed out the banks. Now the same fucking people are literally arming a genocide and attacking anyone who tries to get in the way.
How are you convinced by that performance that voting was the right call???
Unironically I will lmfao.
You're talking about electoralism when this is an issue where the vast majority of voters have nobody to vote for that actually aligns with their interests. Do you vote for Biden the senile Zionist or Trump the deranged Zionist?
You want to work within the system? Make a billion dollars doing something morally depraved and bribe the politcians yourself. It's just as unrealistic as voooooting your way to progress and more effective.
I voted for Bernie each time and don’t give a shit about the other candidates. If enough people did that we wouldn’t be having this conversation.
Bernie is a Zionist too lmao.
Are there zionists in the room right now?
I'm right here.
You’re the one who voted for Bernie so yeah I assume.
I remember believing that. Then I saw the Democratic party cheat and gaslight the public into thinking theres any real democracy in their primary.
It's Joever, dude. Democracy is dead
Yeah I don’t really care about party politics so I’m not going to go further into what x or y party does, I’m just saying between engaging in a flawed system and replacing it with another system it will always be easier to engage in what already exists.
That's an assumption you've made, and its not factual. It's a supposition of fact that you shpuld treat with appropriate skepticism
It’s not an assumption it’s literally how basically everything in this universe works.
It’s generally easier to fix something than completely redo it. Less materials, less energy expenditure, less time.
I can use whatever analogy you want but the fact is it would be much easier to get more active in local politics and make a positive change that way than tear the whole system down and hope it doesn’t fall victim to the same power-hungry tyrants in another form.
That's why in nature all organism live forever instead of creating an entirely new organism to propagate their genetic line. Why waste all the resources on reproduction when you can make the original organism live forever. It's that simple!
I literally can’t tell if you’re serious or not because most hexbear users legit sound like this all the time.
There’s a reason y’all need your own instance and it’s not because you’re the enlightened ones lol
Your attempts at sounding smug just make me feel bad for you. You're like the verbal version of those robots that can barely walk getting hit with sticks over and over again and struggling to stand back up. Go back to reddit. You're clearly distressed by the fact that you've stepped outside your echo chamber.
lol the difference is I actually try and gain outside perspective while you stay here in your safe instance to troll anyone who dares have a different opinion.
Which I’m sure is exactly how the powers that be want us to view each other, rather than as peers.
If you actually gave as much of a shit as you and your fellow hexbear users seem to have upon first glance you would have noticed already.
99% of the time poorly socialized r*dditors like you make up the majority and people like us are the minority. It's pretty obvious that this is the first time you've ever been anything other than the majority and it's very distressing to you.
Yes, that’s why everyone in this thread is explaining to you why that’s bad.
Capital. The answer is always kapital.
You: "I disagree with Ogodei Khan's's policies and the Mongol Empire is collapsing on multiple fronts, if only we declare Kublai Khan the Great Khan at the Kurultai then the true will of the people will prevail and the empire will be cured!"
Nah, all systems have the same problems. I have yet to hear why x is better than y.
Guess you can’t :)
There is no difference between good things and bad things you imbecile, you fucking moron
You've got it. Just
harder lib
I mean it’s that or burn it all down, and at our current rate of economic and ecological breakdown we don’t really have the time or resources to form a better structure.
It’s much more economical for example, to repair the climate than it would be to terraform another planet. At a much smaller scale, it’s easier to fix the system than replace it.
If we can’t even decide on basic shit like “is the earth warming at a rate that is hostile to life” or “is Taylor Swift a psyop” how are we supposed to form a new cohesive government? It’s going to be hard enough electing decent people to any structure you can think of.
Which is why we need to do a slow incrementalism by voting?
I’m on board for anything better that we can realistically accomplish in the next decade that can guarantee long term prosperity for the people and also is not subject to greedy and power-hungry officials.
Let me paraphrase what you said for you:
"I will eat shit forever because the people forcefeeding me shit taught me that any alternative involves me eating shit AND drinking piss"
Paraphrase all you want, that doesn’t give you a point or mean you’re being accurate doing it lol.
Come back when you have a constructive comment. But I doubt that exists on this instance.
Is your goal being here to spread your beliefs? Cause this kind of comment isn’t effective at getting people on board.
Our only goal is to piss you off personally, and we're doing a damn fine job
I'm on board with it. Sounds like a you problem
And this is achieved through voting how? We need a radical in the white house by november.
Better engagement in the voting process by the voting public, for a start.
Unfortunately too many Americans either pay no attention to our political system, are misled enough on its operations, or are too complacent or depressed to care.
This is the root of the issue that has allowed the current system to be so corrupt, and regardless of governmental structure this is what needs to be solved before anything else.
The system is not corrupt. The system in the US is working 100% as intended. The root of the system is capitalism. This us what living under capital is. You can't change anything unless you understand the problem.
You want to blame the least powerful people in society for not
ing hard enough, instead of looking first at the most obvious thing we should consider - how all resources are extracted, produced, and distributed in society and what that means for evetything else
Corruption is the system. The system is working as intended.
Corruption is also the problem.
Are you having that much trouble understanding?
The powers that be exist only because we allow them to. So yes, I blame the people for not being more aware of what’s going on and voicing their outrage of it.
Let’s move on to something more constructive please. What do you propose as a solution?
Clearly the least powerful people need to just
really, really hard.
Go fuck yourself you dipshit
Ok so you’re just a troll. 🖕
Unlike you, a true paragon of discourse
Hey there, I'm guessing you're new to posting on this instance it looks like you're running afoul of our Posting Policy Bulletin. If you'd like I can explain it to you?
Why did you completely disregard their point about capitalism? Also how does your point NOT mean the solution is obviously revolution?
This is what I don’t understand with people like you. The upper class holds all the cards and shits on everyone else, but supposedly it’s the lower classes fault for being shit on? Why is it their fault?
You yourself are making our point for why liberal democracy cannot fix itself. We can't form a "cohesive government" as you say within this system. That's why its necessary for this system to end.
You will never be able to elect "decent people" because you, us, the people do not have a say in who they get to vote for. This government does not exist for us, and it is not a democracy for us. And it never will be, until the power of capital is broken
When your way has been implemented, and the system is overthrown, and all is just and fair, how are you going to protect this revolution from the next one?
As you said, the government doesn’t work for us. I don’t know of any structure that truly does because they all rely on those given power to use it responsibly and relinquish it eventually, which will always be subject to corruption.
But the alternative is anarchy, and that’s not going to work either.
There's an entire intellectual tradition about this called Marxism-Leninism. There are successful Marxist-Leninist governments that exist right now, including the largest nation on earth. We aren't aren't talking about a fantasy here, there is is over a hundred years of paractice and two hundred of theory, if you're interested in our worldview
Liberal democracy does not work for us - as in the people who are not in the ruling class. That isn't because of some immutable characteristic of all governments, it is by the design of the US government and all liberal democracies.
They were designed by and to work to the benefit of the ruling class - capitalists. That's why it doesn't work for us. Thats the key element and that's what we advocate for a change of. The only way to change things in through class struggle - and placing power in the hands of our class.
We have anarchists here and we keep the place non-sectarian. MLs would agree but not for the same reasons as you. Our disagreement is that we need the power of a state to safeguard the gains of a revolution against the global capitalist class and their state forces. Anarchists have a different view, but they understand the importance of revolutionary class struggle and disagreements aside, their theory of change is infinitely more grounded in reality than yours
How would you define a successful Marxist-Leninist government and which is it?
China is the most obvious one, but Cuba, DPRK, Vietnam, the USSR did very well until it lost its conflict with the US.
You're probably going to say some dumb shit like China isnt really communist, which shows you don't know what you're talking about, or maybe some other westoid propaganda talking point about muh authoritarianism. If that's what you've got don't bother.
You probably don't consider these countries "successful" for some reason based on US propaganda. Great, we've all heard it and know its bullshit.
If you want to pretend that China is not currently the most successful nation on earth, the world's largest democracy, and led by a Marxist Leninist party, cool. Most of the west likes to pretend that shit to. It doesn't change reality, and no one here wants to hear about your lib fantasy world
When did China become a democracy? It’s not communist? I thought you said it was?
I love how you didn’t even give me the opportunity to weigh in on your answers before defending them. You must be real fun at parties.
Socialism is democratic dumbass. Its not liberal democracy - its people's democracy.
Because you libs all say the same dumb shit
Tiananmen square say whaaaat.
Also, communism and socialism aren’t the same thing hahahah. Which is it?
Lmao you're a living meme
Bet they've never heard this before, heh
Tianemen... Square??? Is that something from geometry, like a rhombus? Never heard of it.
Crony capitalism is the problem? Well yeah when you put it like that its like real capitalism hasn't even been tried! You're a genius.
Never would have heard these unique perspectives living in the US
K. I don’t really care what you say lol.
So brave :liberalism:
This is a classic example of "no investigation, no right to speak." You don't know what you're talking about
I do, but your circular logic is seemingly impenetrable
In this moment I am euphoric
Took the words right out of my mouth!
Please, stop lying about a country that you don't know.
Corruption is a fundamental problem of any system of governance, and it reaches a point where the only route to defeat it is to kill the fucking cheats who set it up.
Voting is nit going to fix a system that has intentionally broken voting to invalidate you. Only revolution can do that.
Right, when that revolution is over what is to keep that new perfect system from being corrupted again?
Why bother trying to do anything ever if everything we do is doomed?
Because the alternative is much more sad.
I’d rather go out knowing I tried what I could while I was here.
Just because something isn’t perfect doesn’t mean it isn’t worth doing, and nothing worth having comes easy.
Okay, so we're in the same place. Replacing the current system with something better may get corrupted, but so may status quo. So has status quo.
We don't want revolution because we think everything would perfect and incorruptible in that future, but because a fresh start affords us aon opportunity to reflect upon our foundational mistakes and do build something great from the ground up.
And this is how it works with any project. Sometimes the movie isnt coming together and fixing costs more than starting over. Sometimes your drawing has fundamental issues that can't be fixed by small tweaks, and entire sections or pieces need to be cleared or restarted afresh.
Trying to fix this system certainly is a thing you can try, and many people here have. I spent 35-odd years of my life as a diehard Democrat. I caucused locally and helped my mayor get elected. I didn't come to my position today from a lack of consideration. I think we'd all prefer this shit to be fixed as easily as possible, and no good marxist is under the impression that revolutions are simple, painless things to attempt.
Being liberal is about keeping an open mind, yeah? Like openmindedness is a central principle to modern liberal political philosophy. Keep that energy. Let your mind be open to what the left suggests. I'm not under the impression I can talk you into leftism, but it doesnt hurt you to consider what the left has to offer to your personal philosophy
this is just sad.
What's sad is that you think you're the one being realistic, when your theory of change is complete fantasy.
What we're talking about has been done and accomplished before and exists in the real world, including the largest nation on earth. What you're talking about has never happened
Please provide me an example of communism working on a long-term scale and how you define “working”.
People's Republic of China. Worlds largest democracy. Largest manufacturing nation - poised to be world's largest economy. Seems pretty successful
A communist democratic nation that denies it’s own rebellions?
Communism is democratic. The USSR, Cuba, Vietnam, China all have democracy. If you knew what you were talking about you would know that.
Can you name an example of capitalism working
Well, the US has a form of capitalism that has led to as much success as any other system in that it has allowed more of its people to be more prosperous for longer than any other system in history, but I wouldn’t exactly say it’s “working”.
By that definition no system does, and none will without substantially better active engagement by the people in electoral processes and complete accountability in elected officials to do the job they were hired to do.
Your turn.
https://archive.org/details/HumanRightsInTheSovietUnion/page/n75/mode/2up
The Soviet Union lasted for decades and at the time was on the cutting edge of science, math, industry, social sciences etc and became the second leading superpower only 20 years after forming. Pretty successful if you ask me. It took the US over 100 years to do anything similar.
Then there’s China which is looking to be even more successful than that.
"Who am I supposed to vote for Ben, Aquaman?"
I got some participation for you...
Sure. Get back to me on how that works out.
When you open your mind enough to try i absolutely will.
Lmao ok, what is that even supposed to mean
They're all bloodthirsty zionists and neocons