A society where public ownership of the means of production, a state
controlled by a politically organized proletariat, and production for
societal use rather than for profit is the principal aspect (main
body) of the economy.
Key term here is principal aspect. There is a weird phenomenon from
both anti-communists as well as a lot of ultraleft and leftcom
communists themselves of applying a "one drop rule" to socialism, where
socialism is only socialism if it's absolutely pure without a single
internal contradiction. But no society in the history of humankind has
been pure, they all contain internal contradictions and internal
contradictions are necessary for one form of society to develop into the
next.
If you applied that same logic to capitalism, then if there was any
economic planning or public ownership, then capitalism would cease to be
"true capitalism" and become "actually socialism", which is an argument
a lot of right-wing libertarians unironically make. The whole "not
true capitalism" and "not true socialism" arguments are two sides of
the same coin, that is, people weirdly applying an absolute purity
standard to a particular economic system which is fundamentally
impossible to exist in reality, so they then can declare their preferred
system "has never truly been tried". But it will never be tried ever
because it's an idealized form which cannot exist in concrete reality,
actually-existing capitalism and socialism will always have internal
contradictions within itself.
If no idealized form exists and all things contain internal
contradictions within themselves, then the only way to define them in a
consistent way is not to define them in terms of perfectly and purely
matching up to that idealized form, but that description merely becoming
the principal aspect in a society filled with other forms and
internal contradictions within itself.
A capitalist society introducing some economic planning and public
ownership doesn't make it socialist because the principal aspect is
still bourgeois rule and production for profit. This would mean the
state and institutions carrying out the economic planning would be most
influenced by the bourgeoisie and not by the working class, i.e. they
would still behave somewhat privately, the "public ownership" would
really be bourgeois ownership and the economic planning would be for the
benefit of the bourgeoisie first and foremost.
A similar story in a socialist society with markets and private
ownership. If you have a society dominated by public ownership and
someone decides to open a shop, where do they get the land, the raw
materials, permission for that shop, etc? If they get everything from
the public sector, then they exist purely by the explicit approval by
the public sector, they don't have real autonomy. The business may be
internally run privately but would be forced to fit into the public plan
due to everything around them demanding it for their survival.
Whatever is the dominant aspect of society will shape the subordinated
forms. You have to understand societies as all containing internal
contradictions and seeking for what is the dominant form in that society
that shapes subordinated forms, rather than through an abstract and
impossible to realize idealized version of "true socialism".
Countries like Norway may have things that seemingly contradict
capitalism like large social safety nets for workers funded by large
amounts of public ownership, but these came as concessions due to the
proximity of Nordic countries to the USSR which pressured the
bourgeoisie to make concessions with the working class. However, the
working class and public ownership and economic planning never became
the principal aspect of Norway. The bourgeoisie still remains in
control, arguably with a weaker position, but they are still by
principal aspect, and in many Nordic countries ever since the
dissolution of the USSR, the bourgeoisie has been using that dominant
position to roll back concessions.
The argument for China being socialist is not that China has fully
achieved some pure, idealized form of socialism, but that China is a
DOTP where public ownership alongside the CPC's Five-Year plans remain
the principal aspect of the economy and other economic organization is a
subordinated form.
Deng Xiaoping Theory is not a rejection of the economic system the
Soviets were trying to build but a criticism of the Soviet understanding
socialist development. After the Soviets deemed they had sufficient
productive forces to transition into socialism, they attempted to
transition into a nearly pure socialist society within a very short
amount of time, and then declared socialist construction was completed
and the next step was to transition towards communism.
Deng Xiaoping Theory instead argues that socialism itself has to be
broken up into development stages a bit like how capitalism also has a
"lower" and "higher" phase, so does socialism. The initial stage is to
the "primary stage" of underdeveloped socialism, and then the main goal
of the communist party is to build towards the developed stage of
socialism. The CPC disagreed that the Soviets had actually completed
their socialist construction and trying to then build towards communism
was rushing things far faster than what the level of productive forces
of the country could sustain and inevitably would lead to such great
internal contradictions in the economic system to halt economic
development.
The argument was not a rejection of the Marxist or Marxist-Leninist
understanding of what socialism is, but a disagreement over the
development stages, viewing socialism's development as much more gradual
and a country may remain in the primary stage like China is currently
in for a long, long time, Deng Xiaoping speculated even 100 years.
I recall reading somethings from Mao where he criticized the Marxian
understanding of communism, but not from the basis of it being wrong,
but it being speculative. He made the argument that Marx's detailed
analysis of capitalism was only possible because Marx lived in a
capitalist society and could see and research its development in real
time, therefore Mao was skeptical the current understanding of communism
would remain forever, because when you actually try to construct it you
would inevitably learn far more than you could speculate about in the
future, have a much more detailed understanding of what it is in
concrete reality and what its development stages look like.
In a sense, that's the same position the modern CPC takes towards
socialism, that the Soviets and Mao rushed into socialism due to
geopolitical circumstances and did not have time to actually fully grasp
what socialist development would look like in practice, and Deng
Xiaoping Theory introduces the concept of the primary stage of socialism
based on their experience actually trying to implement it under Mao.
Despite common misconception, the CPC's position is indeed that China is
currently socialist, not "will be socialist in 2049" or whatever. The
argument is that China is in the primary stage of socialism, a system
where socialist aspects of the political and economic system have
become the main body but in a very underdeveloped form.
Also, do you have some theory regarding firms and firms competing to do a job? Like if the socialist project had a need for pirating and you sent to do it instead of getting a people's pirate crew together?
Didn't read but will continue to uphold Marxism-leninism-Mao Zedong thought-Deng Xiaoping theory-Xi Jinping thought-Joe Biden action
I think the formal definition the CPC uses is "a transitional economy under the DotP" rather than even claiming a socialist economy.
No, they're in an early socialist stage. Xi constantly reiterates this point.
deleted by creator
Goddamn, will they let me into China?
Also, do you have some theory regarding firms and firms competing to do a job? Like if the socialist project had a need for pirating and you sent to do it instead of getting a people's pirate crew together?
deleted by creator
deleted by creator
My dad likes to cite movies when he's debating. It's so bizarre to me and it shuts off my desire to have engaged conversations with him.
deleted by creator
deleted by creator
Maybe China isn't a perfectly communist country but imperialist? Who in the hell have they invaded or colonized?
Surely you have a better understanding of marxism than someone like Deng that lived his entite life doing praxis lmao.
deleted by creator
are you just reciting buzzwords