So @EmmaGoldman@hexbear.net had a nice comment here in a previous thread explaining the dynamic of Jewish people's attitude toward Israel.

I think everyone here understands that it is in Israel's benefit to (1) conflate antisemitism and antizionism to both silence dissent and (2) foster the perception that antisemitism is increasing, and even (3) encourage actual antisemitism/ally with antisemites so that Jews living in countries around the world feel under threat. Israel can then position itself as the final lifeboat for Jewish people to survive capitalism as it degrades into fascism that will almost certainly target them. Of course fleeing to Israel means becoming a settler-fascist yourself, but this is quite a tough choice to put in front of somebody and there are quite a few mental escape hatches one can use about working to change the system from within once you're there or whatever.

So the problem we face is this: Under the assumption that the support (enthusiastic or mere tolerance) of Jewish people in the US for Israel is important to maintaining US support for Israel, or at least for maintaining the veneer of legitimacy for this support, how can we convince people to give up their lifeboat? I think this is quite a large ask. Many of us here believe the imperial core is inevitably degrading into fascism under the repetitive two-step of overt slides to the right & neoliberalism slightly arresting this process but making people widely despise electoral politics. This fascism will target Jewish people, and the fascists are perfectly happy to have somewhere to ship Jewish people off to instead of killing them as they build their white ethnostate. Many other minorities will also be targeted but do not have the luxury of a similar lifeboat. How can we square this circle?

  • iByteABit [comrade/them]
    hexbear
    32
    edit-2
    25 days ago

    If your lifeboat is committing genocide, it's no lifeboat and will never be. Jews will be safe and free once everyone is safe and free, that's why they should join the struggle to end capitalism and not run to some imaginary utopia for Jews exclusively.

    • itappearsthat [he/him]
      hexagon
      hexbear
      15
      edit-2
      25 days ago

      I think it's important here to keep in mind that the US is a settler country itself. It did what Israel is doing right now, at greater scale and over a longer time span, until it spanned "from sea to shining sea". We exist within that context, and many people who were born here or immigrated here find it acceptable to live here. If the settler process is not stopped Israel might also reach that state.

      Hell, it isn't unthinkable that Israel will have a revolutionary war for independence from the US. One big factor contributing to the American revolution against the Brits was the Royal Proclamation of 1763 halting any settlement West of the Appalachians. It is easy to imagine the US negotiating some Israeli border settlement with regional Arab powers that zionists find intolerable and so come into direct conflict with the US itself. They might even win, given their geographical location near so many points of leverage for global power - the same reason the US supports Israel so heavily in the first place.

      • Maturin [any]
        hexbear
        10
        25 days ago

        The American settler genocide is still ongoing. Just because some residents find it acceptable enough doesn't mean history is over. US/Canadian foreign and domestic policy will always be flawed so long as their essentially settler-colonial character remains. See, e.g., the black shirts called to all the college campuses in the US right now. Most of these college students and professors, before the past week, probably found the system "acceptable" but now they see what happens when they even suggest sympathizing with colonial victims.