Generally, yes, as long as sectarianism doesn't define their movement it will result in more positive agitprop. Correctly attacking Capitalism and advocating for Socialism along revolutionary lines is the key here, if they spend their attention on attacking other orgs then they are ultimately wreckers.
WSWS is controlled by a party called SEP, which is ideologically opposed to labor unions and seeks to abolish labor unions. I would consider that to be not good.
Capitalism exists today because of the betrayals of the working class by its own organizations—the mass political parties and the trade unions. “The world political situation as a whole is chiefly characterized by a historical crisis of the leadership of the proletariat.” These words, with which Leon Trotsky began the founding document of the Fourth International, remain supremely relevant as a definition of contemporary political reality.
Capitalism exists today because of the betrayals of the working class by its own organizations—the mass political parties and the trade unions.
I don't think such sentiments are exclusive to them, about such views, though I'm pretty sure the ruling capitalist class probably killed off any revolutionary, instead of it being an isolated internal destruction of such
WSWS is controlled by a party called SEP, which is ideologically opposed to labor unions and seeks to abolish labor unions.
Ok, then, let's read into why it is so:
tldr: U.S infiltration of the largest union AFL-CIO board, and the process of its labor-aristocratization and dominance by pro-bourgeois liberal professional managers, who co-opted and rid of any decent labor policies, let alone, revolutionary energy
section 31
The opportunists’ aversion to telling the workers the truth is virtually always connected to their efforts to provide political cover for, and preserve the authority of, the old reactionary, bureaucratized and thoroughly corporatist trade unions and political organizations that maintain the subordination of the working class to the capitalist system. The SEP, in opposition to the opportunists, aims to develop within the working class an understanding of the nature of the old organizations—principally, in the United States, the trade unions—which claim to represent the working people. The AFL-CIO and its factional rival, the so-called “Change to Win” coalition, are controlled by and serve the interests of a substantial stratum of middle-class functionaries whose personal income is derived from their active and conscious role as facilitators of the corporate exploitation of the working class. During the past quarter century, the trade unions have played a major role in breaking strikes, lowering wages, eliminating benefits, cutting jobs and shutting down factories. During this process, despite the loss of membership, the revenues of the trade unions and the salaries of their functionaries have continued to rise. Insulated from and indifferent to the hardships suffered by their membership, and protected by the “dues check-off” and labor laws from rank-and-file protests, the unions are tied by a thousand threads to the corporations and the capitalist state, including its intelligence agencies. The Socialist Equality Party calls for a rebellion against and break with these corrupt organizations, which do not represent the working class.
However,
This does not mean that the SEP abstains from working inside such organizations, to the extent that such activity is required to gain access to and assist the workers jointly oppressed by their employers and the union functionaries. But the SEP conducts such work on the basis of a revolutionary perspective, encouraging at every point the formation of new independent organizations—such as factory and workplace committees—that truly represent the interests of the rank-and-file workers and are subject to democratic control.
I'm not a Trotskyist, but I believed, compared to the regular shit they say of Stalin, USSR, and their views on idpol, this is a reasonable point of view, given their circumstances
Do you think they just fell from the coconut tree and declared this an eternal law?
Do you think they just fell from the coconut tree and declared this an eternal law?
No I think it's a incorrect analysis to conclude that all labor unions are collaborating with capitalism based on one example, when labor unions have largely been a force which has fought against capitalism. I think you're foolish for trying to defend them. They do partcipate in labor unions and they try to abolish the unions from within. The WSWS was promoting a Trotskyist guy who was trying to abolish the UAW.
They do partcipate in labor unions and they try to abolish the unions from within. The WSWS was promoting a Trotskyist guy who was trying to abolish the UAW.
Oh, I see... they're against Shawn Fain... that's an L on their part
Ok, maybe, I'm getting to see your point, that they are very harsh and condemning of labor unions
I don't think you're quite getting it. You're trying to rationalize their language with your own framework but they don't operate on your framework. I'm not being hyperbolic when I use the phrase "abolish". That is the word that they used, not me. They are against Shawn Fain, yes, but they're also against the concept of labor unions in general. The trotskyist guy who ran against Shawn Fain ran with "Abolish the UAW" as his core #1 campaign promise and was shocked when he lost. They want to abolish all labor unions, not just the UAW. The SEP are acting as obstructionists to labor organizing.
deleted by creator
Actions will speak louder than words ultimately.
Generally, yes, as long as sectarianism doesn't define their movement it will result in more positive agitprop. Correctly attacking Capitalism and advocating for Socialism along revolutionary lines is the key here, if they spend their attention on attacking other orgs then they are ultimately wreckers.
The IMT are actually a good Trot group
What makes them a "good trot group"? That's a genuine question, lol, not trying to sound snarky.
Idk, like Trotskyists that, for some reason, know the concept of critical support for countries like China or are anti-western and don't repeatedly prioritize whacking other leftist orgs
WSWS is controlled by a party called SEP, which is ideologically opposed to labor unions and seeks to abolish labor unions. I would consider that to be not good.
https://www.wsws.org/en/special/pages/sep/us/principles.html
Aight, lemme see into this
I don't think such sentiments are exclusive to them, about such views, though I'm pretty sure the ruling capitalist class probably killed off any revolutionary, instead of it being an isolated internal destruction of such
Ok, then, let's read into why it is so:
tldr: U.S infiltration of the largest union AFL-CIO board, and the process of its labor-aristocratization and dominance by pro-bourgeois liberal professional managers, who co-opted and rid of any decent labor policies, let alone, revolutionary energy
section 31
However,
I'm not a Trotskyist, but I believed, compared to the regular shit they say of Stalin, USSR, and their views on idpol, this is a reasonable point of view, given their circumstances
Do you think they just fell from the coconut tree and declared this an eternal law?
No I think it's a incorrect analysis to conclude that all labor unions are collaborating with capitalism based on one example, when labor unions have largely been a force which has fought against capitalism. I think you're foolish for trying to defend them. They do partcipate in labor unions and they try to abolish the unions from within. The WSWS was promoting a Trotskyist guy who was trying to abolish the UAW.
Oh, I see... they're against Shawn Fain... that's an L on their part
Ok, maybe, I'm getting to see your point, that they are very harsh and condemning of labor unions
I don't think you're quite getting it. You're trying to rationalize their language with your own framework but they don't operate on your framework. I'm not being hyperbolic when I use the phrase "abolish". That is the word that they used, not me. They are against Shawn Fain, yes, but they're also against the concept of labor unions in general. The trotskyist guy who ran against Shawn Fain ran with "Abolish the UAW" as his core #1 campaign promise and was shocked when he lost. They want to abolish all labor unions, not just the UAW. The SEP are acting as obstructionists to labor organizing.
I see, tysm... they're anti-labor union overall... this is a disastrous move on their part.
Aren't these Bob Avakian people?
You're thinking of the RCP