i feel like ive just seen a lot of people arguing that this is a bad thing and i don't get where they're coming from. like i can see it being ineffective but honestly this site seems more against it than anywhere else on the internet.
They're not arguing it's a bad thing. Propaganda of the deed spells it out pretty clearly. What they're against is random acts of adventurism that are ultimately futile other than short-term propaganda and because all it actually does it get you a couple of doots and popularity on the internet that could be better served organizing and working with others in your community.
Feeding someone is worth far more than smashing a cop car window that will get ultimately covered by insurance. Trying to twist it as "civility brain-worms" is disingenuous compared to the mountain of theory we have on the topic.
Edit: I should also say that protests and other escalations are different. if you really wanna go ice a CEO, go for it. We went through this in the 1800s and it ultimately paled in comparison to Bolshevism as a major example.
i wasn't trying to make it about civility, i understand that they all know he deserved to die. what you're saying is the argument i don't get though. right now, i'm not serving my community, i've never worked at a soup kitchen or anything, i've never tried to organize locally beyond my polycule. am i doing a better job than the assassin? it's not one or the other, it's not like he took time out of his packed good deeds schedule to plan the assassination. i feel like the fact that there's a better use for his time is irrelevant, because he probably wouldn't use that time for whatever better thing you have in mind. aside from that, i'm not completely convinced that what he did was utterly useless. leftists have a really hard time swaying public opinion to any degree, and i don't think i've ever seen more anti capitalist revolutionary sentiment in america than right now, as a direct result of this propaganda.
In the other case, yeah, it is good propaganda. It's something great to stir revolutionary sentiment, truly. Honestly, myself, I'd like to see more. That's really it though. It's just a one-off event, perhaps with a couple copy-cats that result in nothing more than added security and bulletproof limousines. Countries in the exploited periphery still have yet to tear off their shackles despite their long history of direct-action. Left-wing urban guerillas in West Germany are a great example of this in the imperial core; they had plenty propaganda of the deed to draw people to their side and even enjoyed popular support. Without mass organization, however, they were unable to actually effect the conditions around them.
Those who engage in that form of practice in mass-organization successfully are culled. Fred Hampton, M.L.K, etc. Of course it isn't completely useless, it's called propaganda of the deed for a reason. It's that we have history to compare it to that shows us that ultimately it isn't much worth for change.
You're not going to be able to actually "change" anything without addressing the imperialism and the exploited periphery to deal with the labor aristocracy. What you can do is make an effect on your local community or build one, agitprop and engage in other forms of adventurism when you can. There are more effective things than shooting C.E.Os. I'd look towards the contamination of Israeli clean-rooms as an example of more effective sabotage.
i think it's basically a prerequisite right now. now that the propaganda has been so effective, i think any attempt to organize people for real change would be a whole lot easier.
A prerequisite to what? The 1800s era of propaganda of the deed? It was effective in stirring sentiment, sure, but it didn't accomplish anything compared to other examples I mentioned and to what I said.
I also personally think people who advocate for this type of risky direct action should be leading the example. As who of those that advocate organization; not everyone on here is just "not organizing".
A prerequisite to what? The 1800s era of propaganda of the deed? It was effective in stirring sentiment, sure, but it didn't accomplish anything compared to other examples I mentioned and to what I said.
i'd note there's probably kind of an inherent difference between propaganda of the deed in the 1800s and propaganda of the deed in 2024 where you can literally livestream it to millions
I agree. I mentioned earlier that sure, you get more spread and reach. On the other edge of the sword you have people way more comfortable and steeped into even deeper echo chambers and paradigms. Propaganda of the deed nowadays can reach millions and we've seen something like this before. Did it really inspire anything other than some people on the internet cheering for the next week? It isn't the first time an insurance CEO was iced in NYC.
i don't think assassinations alone will fix anything, but i think any action that would fix anything is far more likely to happen now that the assassination has changed people's sentiments. i'm not proposing any real solutions, but i feel like any real solution is at least more likely to happen now than it was before.
I can understand that. I think what I'm trying to say is that action generally is paralyzed in the core. It is dominated by a labor aristocracy that extracts and bleeds the periphery dry in order to maintain it's hegemony. Trying to bust through this requires recruiting from the most marginalized, oppressed and distraught in the core which typically are also affected by alienation and can have their own "views" if you can get what I mean.
If we had figured out the proper action, we'd be chilling in space discussing this over a bust of Marx and Lenin. Sadly, we're here. Truly, I think it's partially a waiting game with the rest dictated by how you organize with your local community that being your neighbors, your family, your friend's family, etc. Getting into an actual functional party around you is something for after you know who's around you and you can take the extra work and mental stress.
This "action" has been demonstrated in history countless times over. I have no doubt we'll see it pop up more and more. I also have no doubt that we'll know exactly where it ends.
i feel like ive just seen a lot of people arguing that this is a bad thing and i don't get where they're coming from. like i can see it being ineffective but honestly this site seems more against it than anywhere else on the internet.
They're not arguing it's a bad thing. Propaganda of the deed spells it out pretty clearly. What they're against is random acts of adventurism that are ultimately futile other than short-term propaganda and because all it actually does it get you a couple of doots and popularity on the internet that could be better served organizing and working with others in your community.
Feeding someone is worth far more than smashing a cop car window that will get ultimately covered by insurance. Trying to twist it as "civility brain-worms" is disingenuous compared to the mountain of theory we have on the topic.
Edit: I should also say that protests and other escalations are different. if you really wanna go ice a CEO, go for it. We went through this in the 1800s and it ultimately paled in comparison to Bolshevism as a major example.
i wasn't trying to make it about civility, i understand that they all know he deserved to die. what you're saying is the argument i don't get though. right now, i'm not serving my community, i've never worked at a soup kitchen or anything, i've never tried to organize locally beyond my polycule. am i doing a better job than the assassin? it's not one or the other, it's not like he took time out of his packed good deeds schedule to plan the assassination. i feel like the fact that there's a better use for his time is irrelevant, because he probably wouldn't use that time for whatever better thing you have in mind. aside from that, i'm not completely convinced that what he did was utterly useless. leftists have a really hard time swaying public opinion to any degree, and i don't think i've ever seen more anti capitalist revolutionary sentiment in america than right now, as a direct result of this propaganda.
In the other case, yeah, it is good propaganda. It's something great to stir revolutionary sentiment, truly. Honestly, myself, I'd like to see more. That's really it though. It's just a one-off event, perhaps with a couple copy-cats that result in nothing more than added security and bulletproof limousines. Countries in the exploited periphery still have yet to tear off their shackles despite their long history of direct-action. Left-wing urban guerillas in West Germany are a great example of this in the imperial core; they had plenty propaganda of the deed to draw people to their side and even enjoyed popular support. Without mass organization, however, they were unable to actually effect the conditions around them.
Those who engage in that form of practice in mass-organization successfully are culled. Fred Hampton, M.L.K, etc. Of course it isn't completely useless, it's called propaganda of the deed for a reason. It's that we have history to compare it to that shows us that ultimately it isn't much worth for change.
You're not going to be able to actually "change" anything without addressing the imperialism and the exploited periphery to deal with the labor aristocracy. What you can do is make an effect on your local community or build one, agitprop and engage in other forms of adventurism when you can. There are more effective things than shooting C.E.Os. I'd look towards the contamination of Israeli clean-rooms as an example of more effective sabotage.
i think it's basically a prerequisite right now. now that the propaganda has been so effective, i think any attempt to organize people for real change would be a whole lot easier.
A prerequisite to what? The 1800s era of propaganda of the deed? It was effective in stirring sentiment, sure, but it didn't accomplish anything compared to other examples I mentioned and to what I said.
I also personally think people who advocate for this type of risky direct action should be leading the example. As who of those that advocate organization; not everyone on here is just "not organizing".
i'd note there's probably kind of an inherent difference between propaganda of the deed in the 1800s and propaganda of the deed in 2024 where you can literally livestream it to millions
I agree. I mentioned earlier that sure, you get more spread and reach. On the other edge of the sword you have people way more comfortable and steeped into even deeper echo chambers and paradigms. Propaganda of the deed nowadays can reach millions and we've seen something like this before. Did it really inspire anything other than some people on the internet cheering for the next week? It isn't the first time an insurance CEO was iced in NYC.
Hegemony wasn't implanted as deep in the 1800s.
i don't think assassinations alone will fix anything, but i think any action that would fix anything is far more likely to happen now that the assassination has changed people's sentiments. i'm not proposing any real solutions, but i feel like any real solution is at least more likely to happen now than it was before.
I can understand that. I think what I'm trying to say is that action generally is paralyzed in the core. It is dominated by a labor aristocracy that extracts and bleeds the periphery dry in order to maintain it's hegemony. Trying to bust through this requires recruiting from the most marginalized, oppressed and distraught in the core which typically are also affected by alienation and can have their own "views" if you can get what I mean.
If we had figured out the proper action, we'd be chilling in space discussing this over a bust of Marx and Lenin. Sadly, we're here. Truly, I think it's partially a waiting game with the rest dictated by how you organize with your local community that being your neighbors, your family, your friend's family, etc. Getting into an actual functional party around you is something for after you know who's around you and you can take the extra work and mental stress.
This "action" has been demonstrated in history countless times over. I have no doubt we'll see it pop up more and more. I also have no doubt that we'll know exactly where it ends.