I think it would be more correct to say that, to higher caste white people, other lower caste white people can lose their whiteness, but those same people still maintain their whiteness when dealing with non-white people. An Ashkenazi Jew (a European) is a white person to every non white person, even if they are pro Palestine. Being a "good white ally" or something doesn't mean you have sacrificed the power you have which is based on the way you look, act, think, were raised, and the dynamics you have with non white people. An Ashkenazi Jew might be pro Palestine but they will still get hired over an equally competent Black person, survive a police encounter that may have killed an Indigenous person, be welcomed into a store by a clerk who follows a non white person around to the store, etc. these are benefits of their whiteness, regardless of their internal commitment to the struggles of non white people
I think a distinction can be made between racism and colorism. Racism can be applied to people with white passing complexion under the certain contexts and in certain historical moments, but colorism is entirely visual and is based solely on how people look.
Light skin is a universal privilege that applies in all white supremacist society and can never be taken away, even when racist sentiments against light-skinned ethnicities flares up. It's like you say, they can always just quietly pretend to be Anglo. That said, light skin isn't a universal protection either. Even if it's always a privilege to be able to hide, it's not like light skin stopped the Nazis.
Sure racism and colorism is a conversation for non white people. You're talking about European Jewish people, they are white and that doesn't go away because of their opinions on Zionism
Islamophobia exists, do you think that means an ethnic German convert to Islam isn't white?
Europeans are white, Ashkenazi Jews are Europeans, and are white. They weren't always considered white by white people, like Italians and Irish people, but now they are firmly cemented in their whiteness, their strongest allies and protectors are non Jewish white people who are also white supremacists.
This is obvious if you look at the white Jewish people calling Ethiopian Jews anti Black slurs, making them second class citizens, and perpetuating systemic violence against them in the so called Jewish state. Europeans Jews literally run a white supremacist settler colony, what are you on about
How does an anti-Zionist Jew walk around and be misidentified as non-white? You're talking about other Jews accusing them of antisemitism for not being Zionists, is this your example of a racist attack against them for somehow exiting their position as white people?
No, anti-Zionist Ashkenazi Jews still walk around with all the privilege of every other white person. Until the entire Jewish collective is removed from whiteness wholesale, there is no distinguishing one as white and one as not white. Whiteness is a power dynamic defined by power over non white people, which every Ashkenazi Jew has regardless of their personal beliefs. There may be infighting among the Jewish community about Zionism but that is irrelevant to the concept of whiteness, privilege, and power over non white people
I'll just clarify first that when I mentioned jewish people below, I am talking about ethnic european jews and not jewish people of color.
Racism and colorism are similar, but distinct oppressions. Sure, a Jewish person with passing complexion is safe as an anonymous person on the streets, but once they are identified as an anti-Zionist Jew things become very different: police become more aggressive, job opportunities disappear, other whites become violent, etc. There is definitely a privilege to having passing complexion, but that only lasts as long as their anonymity lasts. Once it's "discovered" that they're not a core white ethnicity, and they're disloyal to whiteness, the knives come out.
Okay but is this really true? For the police example, what other context would you be referencing besides maybe a pro-Palestinian protest, do you have examples of cops singling out Jewish protesters and not everyone else?
For the job opportunities, do vocally anti-zionist goy lose job opportunities too, or only vocally anti-zionist jews? Not talking about Jewish organizations run by Zionists, but regular jobs that aren't religious in character.
For other whites becoming violent, I don't see how someone isn't already antisemitic would single out anti-zionist jews to be hateful towards, surely they would be the same amount of antisemitic to any jewish person? are you asserting selective antisemitism among non jews towards only anti-zionist jews only when it is apparent they are anti-zionist?
Once any anti-zionist is discovered, jewish or not, zionists will attack them. They might have jewish specific insults to hurl at anti-zionist jews, they might see them as betrayers of their shared religion and so have more a motive to make that clear, but if an anti-zionist jewish person is attacked by a zionist, that same anti-zionist jewish person can still walk away from that encounter with all the same privilege and power over non-white people. maybe if they apply for a job at the place where the zionist who attacked them is the hiring manager, they won't get a job, but otherwise they would still get hired before an equally qualified non-white person.
Let me clarify: I'm talking about Anglo and Franco whites being antisemitic against Jews for not being sufficiently Zionist. We've seen all the hits: accusing them of controlling the media to spread lies, accusing them of controlling UN and agencies like Amnesty to spread lies, of being shiftless cosmopolitans that aren't loyal to any country and can't be trusted, of controlling opposition political parties to enact their sinister plots like Great Replacement, etc etc. This is wielded, by whites, against anti-Zionist Jews.
I've seen all these attacks against jewish people but I have never seen or heard of any anti-zionist jewish person saying they have been singled out by non-jewish people for being anti-zionist. of course this isn't evidence that it hasn't happened, but I'm having a hard time following your logic and see no evidence to support it. I have heard antisemitic people say these things about Israel itself and "the jews" in general, but not anti-zionist jews specifically. I have had jewish friends working in jewish orgs get pushed out because of their vocal anti-zionism, but these people didn't lose their whiteness in the process.
I appreciate you taking the time to go back and forth with me on this but it feels like you are really reaching with this conclusion that anti-zionist jews have the benefits of their whiteness taken away for being anti-zionist.
Well I know in the Latin American context there's colorismo, which is based on skin tone and isn't directly rooted in ethnic specificity. There are so many people with non-white admixtures that the concept of white supremacy can't be maintained without compromises, but people with lighter skin are privileged over people with darker skin regardless of what race they actually are.
I think the US might be going in this direction? It's slow, though.
yeah thats just not true. whiteness is not that individual, theres nothing about your beliefs that can impact your whiteness.
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I think it would be more correct to say that, to higher caste white people, other lower caste white people can lose their whiteness, but those same people still maintain their whiteness when dealing with non-white people. An Ashkenazi Jew (a European) is a white person to every non white person, even if they are pro Palestine. Being a "good white ally" or something doesn't mean you have sacrificed the power you have which is based on the way you look, act, think, were raised, and the dynamics you have with non white people. An Ashkenazi Jew might be pro Palestine but they will still get hired over an equally competent Black person, survive a police encounter that may have killed an Indigenous person, be welcomed into a store by a clerk who follows a non white person around to the store, etc. these are benefits of their whiteness, regardless of their internal commitment to the struggles of non white people
I think a distinction can be made between racism and colorism. Racism can be applied to people with white passing complexion under the certain contexts and in certain historical moments, but colorism is entirely visual and is based solely on how people look.
Light skin is a universal privilege that applies in all white supremacist society and can never be taken away, even when racist sentiments against light-skinned ethnicities flares up. It's like you say, they can always just quietly pretend to be Anglo. That said, light skin isn't a universal protection either. Even if it's always a privilege to be able to hide, it's not like light skin stopped the Nazis.
Sure racism and colorism is a conversation for non white people. You're talking about European Jewish people, they are white and that doesn't go away because of their opinions on Zionism
Are you under the impression that antisemitism doesn't exist?
You sound like a Zionist.
Islamophobia exists, do you think that means an ethnic German convert to Islam isn't white?
Europeans are white, Ashkenazi Jews are Europeans, and are white. They weren't always considered white by white people, like Italians and Irish people, but now they are firmly cemented in their whiteness, their strongest allies and protectors are non Jewish white people who are also white supremacists.
This is obvious if you look at the white Jewish people calling Ethiopian Jews anti Black slurs, making them second class citizens, and perpetuating systemic violence against them in the so called Jewish state. Europeans Jews literally run a white supremacist settler colony, what are you on about
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You're literally just repeating what I already said, you should take some time offline to reconstitute yourself
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How does an anti-Zionist Jew walk around and be misidentified as non-white? You're talking about other Jews accusing them of antisemitism for not being Zionists, is this your example of a racist attack against them for somehow exiting their position as white people?
No, anti-Zionist Ashkenazi Jews still walk around with all the privilege of every other white person. Until the entire Jewish collective is removed from whiteness wholesale, there is no distinguishing one as white and one as not white. Whiteness is a power dynamic defined by power over non white people, which every Ashkenazi Jew has regardless of their personal beliefs. There may be infighting among the Jewish community about Zionism but that is irrelevant to the concept of whiteness, privilege, and power over non white people
woops replied to the wrong comment
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I'll just clarify first that when I mentioned jewish people below, I am talking about ethnic european jews and not jewish people of color.
Okay but is this really true? For the police example, what other context would you be referencing besides maybe a pro-Palestinian protest, do you have examples of cops singling out Jewish protesters and not everyone else?
For the job opportunities, do vocally anti-zionist goy lose job opportunities too, or only vocally anti-zionist jews? Not talking about Jewish organizations run by Zionists, but regular jobs that aren't religious in character.
For other whites becoming violent, I don't see how someone isn't already antisemitic would single out anti-zionist jews to be hateful towards, surely they would be the same amount of antisemitic to any jewish person? are you asserting selective antisemitism among non jews towards only anti-zionist jews only when it is apparent they are anti-zionist?
Once any anti-zionist is discovered, jewish or not, zionists will attack them. They might have jewish specific insults to hurl at anti-zionist jews, they might see them as betrayers of their shared religion and so have more a motive to make that clear, but if an anti-zionist jewish person is attacked by a zionist, that same anti-zionist jewish person can still walk away from that encounter with all the same privilege and power over non-white people. maybe if they apply for a job at the place where the zionist who attacked them is the hiring manager, they won't get a job, but otherwise they would still get hired before an equally qualified non-white person.
I've seen all these attacks against jewish people but I have never seen or heard of any anti-zionist jewish person saying they have been singled out by non-jewish people for being anti-zionist. of course this isn't evidence that it hasn't happened, but I'm having a hard time following your logic and see no evidence to support it. I have heard antisemitic people say these things about Israel itself and "the jews" in general, but not anti-zionist jews specifically. I have had jewish friends working in jewish orgs get pushed out because of their vocal anti-zionism, but these people didn't lose their whiteness in the process.
I appreciate you taking the time to go back and forth with me on this but it feels like you are really reaching with this conclusion that anti-zionist jews have the benefits of their whiteness taken away for being anti-zionist.
How does this work outside an American lens?
Well I know in the Latin American context there's colorismo, which is based on skin tone and isn't directly rooted in ethnic specificity. There are so many people with non-white admixtures that the concept of white supremacy can't be maintained without compromises, but people with lighter skin are privileged over people with darker skin regardless of what race they actually are.
I think the US might be going in this direction? It's slow, though.