Hexbear comes here to be the debate bros they try so hard to dunk on. They are dying looking for just one little morsel of dunk. Not a good showing, not a leftist unity moment lmao
The post exclusively attacks Hexbear's ideological "left unity" position so it's kinda fair game for people from that position to want to say something in its defence.
The people doing marxist sectarianism instead of defending left unity are being dummies though.
I think the meme is a not-so-great way to address a dark topic.
But what I was talking about was the behavior of hexbear users in response that is also not cool.
But also I was just kinda fuckin around being entertained by the arguing and trying not to take it too seriously. I'm not here to take a strong stance. People seem to wanna make me take one but I'm gunna keep trying not to give a shit.
I'm not doing a bit, I'm just not trying to take this thread seriously.
Bothsides in the context of arguing about leftist unity feels like a different thing entirely, but I'm also more trying to be "neither side" if that means anything idk I'm tired.
I just want productive progress towards the end of capitalism as soon as possible. In the meantime I'm watching all the anticapitalists find reasons to hate each other forever.
Hexbear comes here to be the debate bros they try so hard to dunk on.
What sort of behavior are you critiquing here?
Personally I think "debate bro" stuff is more arguing for the sake of arguing/bending over backwards to defend even trivial or weak points, maybe with a sprinkling of going back-and-forth long after it becomes clear you're at an impasse. I don't see a lot of that here anyway.
It involves a wide variety of behaviors, including the stuff you said, but primarily the first thing that comes to mind for me is the behaviour of trying to force/coerce people to engage in debates/discussions that they don't want to have or are otherwise unprepared to have, usually on the bad-faith preposition that anyone who is unwilling to participate in said debate/discussion must only be unwilling for the reason of being wrong.
debates/discussions that they don't want to have or are otherwise unprepared to have
I see your point, but I think this is seriously undermined when you have someone like OP who is willing to post all day about this, and occasionally willing to dip their toes into trying to raise real points, but then throws up their hands and says "hey it's just a joke meme" whenever they're in a tough spot.
Eh, IMO it was more like they attempted to engage in response, and then tapped out when it went over their head. Or maybe they just got busy IRL.
It doesn't seem good to me to try and rationalize shitty behavior just because of a reason someone might deserve it.
Also tho, if you wanna call them a lib and consider them officially dunked, you don't need a certain response from them for it to work, you can just decide that.
It’s not shitty behavior to make a political response to a political meme, or to point out when someone isn’t having a good faith conversation.
Yes, but I'm not taking issue with just making political responses or pointing out bad-faith conversations. I'm taking issue with attempts to force/coerce engagement in a debate/discussion when someone doesn't want to or is otherwise unprepared for debate/discussion.
I'm not trying to say any of this in the interest of proving anyone wrong or right or whatever. I would just like to see less of that behavior.
Please don't. I take that seriously and it is obtuse to pretend you don't know the phrase "debate bro". It was a cultural reference, and I have no intention at any point of misgendering anyone.
This is a meme I am referencing after seeing it on hexbear. Specifically imitating their language to make a point. Maybe we should talk to them about it too. I obviously hadn't considered the full implications, and will not use that phrase anymore, for sure.
I mean they just shared a meme from an instance you aren't federated with and quickly had like 20 people trying to demand complex conversations about history with them.
A lot of the complaints directed at them would be better served directed at whoever made the meme.
Maybe don't share history memes you don't even remotely understand that vilify people whose perspective you don't remotely understand? Dude has received some real softball questions and whiffed.
But OP doesn't give a shit, his ideology is "Dae tabkies bad" and the actual historical claims are secondary.
If someone writes as many replies (and as long of replies) as OP, they don't get to pull the "I don't owe you an explanation" card. They've already put in the time; writing 10,000 words and refusing to address hard questions in any of them just means you don't have good answers.
If I go visit a friend and they act like an ass, the fact they're acting like an ass doesn't change because we're at their house. If they talk all day, argue their points where convenient, then pull "I don't owe you an explanation" when you try to make that a two-sided conversation, they're just full of shit when they complain about how burdensome that is for them or whatever.
And no one knows who made this meme, but the person posting it and defending it is right here.
Well the more original OP of the post would be a better target at least.
And all of what what you said is true, but in that analogy I would say my point you are free to not be this persons friend and not spend time in their house. You don't have to convince them to explain themselves for your decision to not be their friend anymore to be valid.
I like the instance despite not being on it and have no particular disagreement with these people, but I was was forced to see a fedpost and their defenders here. This is neither his home nor private.
I am simply saying that this bullshit about "they don't owe you anything" is complete pablum. If you make a claim, especially an accusation of essentially being genocidal, you are thereby inviting counterclaims. Who gives a shit what instance it's on? If he denies the Holocaust to his houseguests, that is not particularly better or worse than denying it while he is someone else's guest because the principle problem is the claim itself.
I don't know what you want me to do about it I guess?
I'm trying to be practical. You want them to engage with counterclaims, and I'm just saying there is no way to make them do that? I agree with your right to make those counterclaims.
Hexbear comes here to be the debate bros they try so hard to dunk on. They are dying looking for just one little morsel of dunk. Not a good showing, not a leftist unity moment lmao
The post exclusively attacks Hexbear's ideological "left unity" position so it's kinda fair game for people from that position to want to say something in its defence.
The people doing marxist sectarianism instead of defending left unity are being dummies though.
I mean you can't expect marxists to not critique anarchists? Left unity, yeah we can do that, but not arguing about everything with everyone? Nah.
Depends. There's a line it crosses from maintaining left unity while doing critique versus becoming sectarianism, and it's not useful when it is.
Yes to the first part. Although, I'll take this moment to say: hexbear's left unity could use a tune up
I'm just trying to talk about the latter behavior you described, which is kindof a symptom of what I mentioned
Yeah I agree.
I think the issue here is that since left unity only has enforcement onsite, some are baited into sectarian arguments offsite.
There's also the issue that this is specifically posing left-unity as a marxist trick.
this meme is explicitly anti-left unity, as is the OP
I think the meme is a not-so-great way to address a dark topic.
But what I was talking about was the behavior of hexbear users in response that is also not cool.
But also I was just kinda fuckin around being entertained by the arguing and trying not to take it too seriously. I'm not here to take a strong stance. People seem to wanna make me take one but I'm gunna keep trying not to give a shit.
"I was just doing a bit, and you can tell how bothsides I am by how good the bit landed"
I'm not doing a bit, I'm just not trying to take this thread seriously.
Bothsides in the context of arguing about leftist unity feels like a different thing entirely, but I'm also more trying to be "neither side" if that means anything idk I'm tired.
I just want productive progress towards the end of capitalism as soon as possible. In the meantime I'm watching all the anticapitalists find reasons to hate each other forever.
What could be more left unity than MLs and anarchists coming together to embarass liberals?
You can't be a fucker like OP and then complain about the lack of unity in response
I'm not complaining, I'm entertained.
And mostly using that language was me trying to reference the meme, try to bring it all full circle.
Would you say you're actually laughing?
I don't get the bit so I'm not gunna answer
Instead I'll ask a question
What?
You criticize Hexbear for dunks, but also criticize them for responding at length with citations.
parentiquote.txt
Death to America
Wait I didn't mean to criticize citations I love citations mb.
What did I say I'll edit it
What sort of behavior are you critiquing here?
Personally I think "debate bro" stuff is more arguing for the sake of arguing/bending over backwards to defend even trivial or weak points, maybe with a sprinkling of going back-and-forth long after it becomes clear you're at an impasse. I don't see a lot of that here anyway.
It involves a wide variety of behaviors, including the stuff you said, but primarily the first thing that comes to mind for me is the behaviour of trying to force/coerce people to engage in debates/discussions that they don't want to have or are otherwise unprepared to have, usually on the bad-faith preposition that anyone who is unwilling to participate in said debate/discussion must only be unwilling for the reason of being wrong.
I see your point, but I think this is seriously undermined when you have someone like OP who is willing to post all day about this, and occasionally willing to dip their toes into trying to raise real points, but then throws up their hands and says "hey it's just a
jokememe" whenever they're in a tough spot.Eh, IMO it was more like they attempted to engage in response, and then tapped out when it went over their head. Or maybe they just got busy IRL.
It doesn't seem good to me to try and rationalize shitty behavior just because of a reason someone might deserve it.
Also tho, if you wanna call them a lib and consider them officially dunked, you don't need a certain response from them for it to work, you can just decide that.
Looks like they've been posting pretty hard in this thread for at least 6-7 hours, often multiple paragraphs at a time.
It's not shitty behavior to make a political response to a political meme, or to point out when someone isn't having a good faith conversation.
Remember, I'm replying to 12 people here. Y'all are replying to just me.
Yes, but I'm not taking issue with just making political responses or pointing out bad-faith conversations. I'm taking issue with attempts to force/coerce engagement in a debate/discussion when someone doesn't want to or is otherwise unprepared for debate/discussion.
I'm not trying to say any of this in the interest of proving anyone wrong or right or whatever. I would just like to see less of that behavior.
Straight up misgendering half the posters lol
Please don't. I take that seriously and it is obtuse to pretend you don't know the phrase "debate bro". It was a cultural reference, and I have no intention at any point of misgendering anyone.
Use debate nerd instead in cases where you don't want to gender people.
Debate pervert is also great
"debatenerd" I'm picking this up! But in my defense, I was saying "debate me bro", as in, someone who says "debate me, bro"
So, there is this cool thing you can do called making memes gender neutral instead of calling trans women bros.
Since you take misgendering extremely seriously, I thought you should know about this neat trick.
This is a meme I am referencing after seeing it on hexbear. Specifically imitating their language to make a point. Maybe we should talk to them about it too. I obviously hadn't considered the full implications, and will not use that phrase anymore, for sure.
You may also have seen "debatelord"
I don't remember seeing that specifically, I might have, but I did specifically see the other several times.
I tend to use the term "debate pervert"
broooo come on I thought we were cool
I'm not trying to make enemies, or say hexbear is as bad as people make it out to be
This thread is just no good
I mean communists are not well known for agreeing on things and not arguing about stuff.
I'm not saying I think this is the end of leftism as we know it or anything. I'm just appreciating the bar fight I guess.
It hasn't been a friendly thread.
If OP had the tiniest scrap of good faith in their being, things would have gone differently
I mean they just shared a meme from an instance you aren't federated with and quickly had like 20 people trying to demand complex conversations about history with them.
A lot of the complaints directed at them would be better served directed at whoever made the meme.
Maybe don't share history memes you don't even remotely understand that vilify people whose perspective you don't remotely understand? Dude has received some real softball questions and whiffed.
But OP doesn't give a shit, his ideology is "Dae tabkies bad" and the actual historical claims are secondary.
This is literally their instance IMO they don't really owe anyone anything here.
Bad takes are allowed within the privacy of one's own home.
If someone writes as many replies (and as long of replies) as OP, they don't get to pull the "I don't owe you an explanation" card. They've already put in the time; writing 10,000 words and refusing to address hard questions in any of them just means you don't have good answers.
I guess that is my position
This is their house, you came here, if they don't have any good answers that's fine because they don't owe you any.
I really think it would be more productive to focus your frustrations at the person who made the meme.
If I go visit a friend and they act like an ass, the fact they're acting like an ass doesn't change because we're at their house. If they talk all day, argue their points where convenient, then pull "I don't owe you an explanation" when you try to make that a two-sided conversation, they're just full of shit when they complain about how burdensome that is for them or whatever.
And no one knows who made this meme, but the person posting it and defending it is right here.
Well the more original OP of the post would be a better target at least.
And all of what what you said is true, but in that analogy I would say my point you are free to not be this persons friend and not spend time in their house. You don't have to convince them to explain themselves for your decision to not be their friend anymore to be valid.
I can walk away, sure, but the point is their excuse of "I don't owe you an explanation" in this context is a dishonest deflection tactic.
If I lie to you, me saying "you're free to talk to someone else" doesn't change the fact that I lied to you.
Again I agree with those, but that being that case doesn't make demanding engagement and such into good behavior. At best, it is unproductive.
I like the instance despite not being on it and have no particular disagreement with these people, but I was was forced to see a fedpost and their defenders here. This is neither his home nor private.
edit: He's the mod lol.
I was trying to be poetic about saying "they are the admin and they are being a good sport letting everyone come in this thread and yell at them"
It isn't a home, but it is theirs. They could just be deleting everything and banning everyone.
"Look, it's his instance, he can do blood libel if he wants"
I don't give a shit what he can do, the question is what he should do. Spouting heinous lies uncritically is bad in any social setting.
If you wanted to convince them of what they should do your methods are strange.
Idk if you think I'm trying to defend their stance or this meme or something, I'm not. I just don't see the point of all this yelling past each other.
I am simply saying that this bullshit about "they don't owe you anything" is complete pablum. If you make a claim, especially an accusation of essentially being genocidal, you are thereby inviting counterclaims. Who gives a shit what instance it's on? If he denies the Holocaust to his houseguests, that is not particularly better or worse than denying it while he is someone else's guest because the principle problem is the claim itself.
I don't know what you want me to do about it I guess?
I'm trying to be practical. You want them to engage with counterclaims, and I'm just saying there is no way to make them do that? I agree with your right to make those counterclaims.
You're the one who has been wagging your finger about what they do or don't "owe"
Well I mean it literally. You can't sue them for an answer on the internet.
You're arguing based on a stance no one took
Ok?
They're starving, man