Was asked in the discord, so might as well make the essay a hexbear post, right? My most recent research can best be described as "analyzing all mentions of FDS during the week on reddit", which is far from exhaustive, but the allegations against FDS are not new in general.
So at the root core, the sub has a sociopathic philosophy of exploiting value out of men, and dehumanizing men that have less value for exploiting. This includes using terms like "scrotes" and "LVM" (low value men). The central idea behind "value" can be oversimplified as "marry a guy with money". The sub is dedicated to strategies around that philosophy.
I just happen to be a Marxist Feminist, which vaguely means I think exploitation is bad.
They use some kind of script to autoban people who post in threads in other subreddits that criticize FDS.
They ban people for stepping out of line with the core philosophy or questioning the rules.
I've seen reports/allegations that at least one mod could be racist, transphobic, anti-sexworker, etc.
During my research, I found that most conversation about FDS was going on in MGTOW and redpill type subs. The primary complaints I did see seemed to be about the actual toxic behavior in FDS, even if the male comments in complaint threads were also expectedly toxic.
The main counternarrative to FDS is to describe them as "female incels" which I find distasteful because femcels actually already exist, and is punching down at both incels and femcels, and they seem to be technically more voluntarily celibate, if only for the sake of withholding value to extract value.
There wasn't a lot of feminist conversation going on about it, other than a single example of a black woman in r/blackladies complaining about an allegedly racist mod.
One sub explicitly mentions "Do not dehumanize others. RedPill, incel, Femcel, FDS, PUA, MGTOW, etc. content is not allowed. Ignorance of these hate groups is not an excuse to parrot their ideology." in a comment removal message /r/datingoverthirty
I did get some tradwife vibes from a few things.
somebody created r/femaledatinghelp which I joined instead of continuing to promote r/twoxdating.
I'm a cis dude. Getting that out the way first.
I get that women have bad experiences with men, and a great deal of care has to be taken when dating them especially because you never know if this guy will kill you if you say or do the wrong thing.
But they just seem miserable. Toxicity breeding toxicity. If they ever succeed and do find a guy with lots of money or whatever, all power to them I guess, but I don't think they'll truly be happy until they learn that there is a way to actually have a non-toxic relationship with men.
A lot of what they post is true. Women do have to put up with a lot of bullshit from men, even in relationships. A quick glance of the Hot section shows several "jokes" and comments I've heard men make before. The "old ball and chain" type humour, like having a wife is a chore. Fuck that stuff. But the reactionary element comes from the response to that culture. An understandable response, but a toxic one nonetheless.
I view them the same way I view incels. Kind of a sympathetic pity, pity that they do feel the way they do, but also pity that the got sucked into a toxic echo chamber that only reinforces their toxic views.
If they ever succeed and do find a guy with lots of money or whatever
https://www.reddit.com/r/FemaleDatingStrategy/comments/n4srq0/is_bill_gates_lvm/
The greatest thread in the history of our forums, locked after 500 pages of heated debate.
Why is it a toxic view? It's not women's responsibility to teach men to respect women.
Yeah, because it's a defeatist and misandrist one.
I never said that the burden lay on women to teach men to be better. I'm not sure where you're getting that at all.
/r/FemaleDatingStrategy is conservative. They regularly dismiss sex workers, call consensual BDSM "abuse" and demand that men must act in their favour at all times otherwise they are a "low-value male". They maintain patriarchal attitudes that favour them and dismiss those that do not. They are toxic because they latch onto an otherwise at-risk group and turn them into reactionaries.
I got that from you saying that it's a toxic sub; To you, it's a toxic sub because they call out all the ways men exploit women through the patriarchy - and even suggest ways for men to be better partners in their FAQ -
There's nothing consensual about BDSM or sex work in patriarchy and capitalism; Just like your boss now pretends to be your friend, men pretend to be equal to women, if anything, they only have the choice to pick their oppressor now.
SILENCE NEW ACCOUNT POSTING BAD FAITH INTERPRETATIONS OF COMMENTS! :sicko-laser:
As a Low Value Male that they would probably hate, I don't really have anything to comment on. It doesn't seem any more reactionary/toxic/punch down to sad lonely men that is normal reddit spaces.
I'm too used to having the boot of capitalism on my back that I can't even function as a human being half the time, let alone think about being alone.
I'm pretty sure this is a bit, but posting can't replace real human contact.
I just don't want to be alone, but there is no options in hell world. It's work and pay bills.
It has for me.
spoiler
Don't do it, you can never re-integrate into society and be a normal person again
I was never a normal person. Covid level isolation has been the norm for me for the last decade and a half. I never fit in anywhere, never felt comfortable around people, so like a curse I had to keep my self distant and I hate it
They're TERFs who see dating through the same "sexual marketplace" lens as incels, so yeah. There are definitely some valid points on there, don't get me wrong, but much like in incel communities it's bitter people complaining to other equally bitter people making both parties more miserable in the process.
Coal miners aren't used and abused by sadistic men who like to dominate and hurt people
Uhh
Also the comments assuming that : no one is better than other people at regular jobs, no work is degrading, and everyone has to be willing to do a job for it not to be degrading.
From what I've seen, when they talk about LVM and HVM in the abstract they insist it's not just about them making money. They'll pay lip service to idea like him being a good listener and other such things.
But when the talk about HVM in concrete terms and examples of HVM, the only thing they ever have in common is that the make a lot of money. That's it, that's all it seems to take to be a HVM to them.
So yeah fantastic write up just thought I'd add this observation because any FDS person would just write off this criticism by saying that they care about more than just money. However a basic analysis of their actual post show this incongruity.
Another observation:
I read posts were they talked about balding men in multiple threads. They talk about them with complete revulsion and derision.
After being upset by it at first, I realized they were simply reflecting the disgusting way some men talk about women's attractiveness; and in particular their value as they age. I'm sure they have been hurt by the way men treat women in this regard and instead of trying to go beyond it, the resort to just reflecting it back at them.
I think the HVM v LVM is the same dynamic. They're just doing what some men (many tbh) do to them. Treating them like value objects. For men this is valuing women by their attractiveness. For women this means valuing men by there money.
FDS is mostly reactionary, but they so have some good content . Talking about people in terms of "value" is pretty dehumanizing, but they do a lot of good work encouraging people to break free from norms that encourage women to cling to terrible, even abusive, relationships. It's also nice for women on reddit to have a space to call out bad male behavior that explicitly excludes men to avoid everything getting drown out in a sea of "bUt ThAt'S mIsAnDrY" or "nOt AlL mEn".
Yes, they basically push gender essentialism and unironically believe "all men are trash" and have no goal to dismantle the patriarchy that negatively affects people of all genders. They're basically analogs of pickup artists/redpill/incel of the male side.
The transphobia was a major part of why r/FDS got noticed by other subs as being reactionary, as it's fairly bioessentialist in its description of men and that naturally leads them to not recognize trans women as women, and especially see trans lesbians as infiltrators. They may have started to de-emphasize their TERFness in reaction to TERF subs getting banned (along with several other TERF subs deciding to speak in code to stay on the platform), but the fundamental explanations they use for why men and women are different are ultimately incompatible with any recognition of trans identities.
Female dating strategy is a good example why we should amplify the invisible and those who have special and unique circumstances. A stupid supervillain white woman rhetorical technique is to accentuate your victimhood while ignoring parts where you're complicit. Sometimes white women have their hearts in the right places but lack the intersectional analysis and end up serving whtie supremacy and transphobia. No one is wrong when they say that #bossgirl , terf energy is actually there, they just never mention that they are explicitly terf and racist. You need to have soft skills to know that it's a sub that's filled with asshole energy.
edit: I know the roots of FDS and lipstick alley, I understand why you have to assimilate to survive. Some people just bask in their assimilation a little too much.
A common theme I've sadly seen with a lot of TERFs is previous abuse in their lives. They use that abuse and the trauma to then justify why trans people aren't real.
Transmen are simply traitors who wish to escape the abuse given to women by pretending to be male,
Transwomen are simple male predators who seek to infiltrate female spaces and abuse women.
I think they genuinely cannot view the subject without their own abuse clouding it. They cannot imagine what it is like to be trans so they see it the only way they can, through their trauma. They also see their abuse as something specifically female, so they cannot imagine why anyone would willingly choose to be female, to present as such, and also open themselves up to that same misogyny they've lived with their whole lives. It's almost like stolen valour to them.
I cannot fully blame them for it. They're still shitty and their ideology sucks, but to be creeped on by men all through your life, get cat-called in the streets, to be criticised for your appearance, to be told to "smile" in the streets, to be wary of men and what they'll do to you etc. and then be told that "there are some people who were AMAB but choose to be women", or however it's phrased, I can truly understand why your first question that would pop into your head be "Why would you choose this?". It's nasty, but I understand where it comes from.
