I'm re-opening the discussion after having read through the threads and dealt with comments. If you believe I've missed something or discussion devolves again please file a report rather than attacking the offender. I'd rather not lock this thread again as this is an important discussion to take place.
For context:
- There was a commenter asserting that poor people were poor due to lack of intelligence or education.
- This is a very offensive viewpoint which ignores many of the factors that contribute to poverty.
- Many users responded with civility
- Some did not, these comments have been dealt with
- The commenter (with the offensive view) was uncompromising in their opinion even when valid arguments were brought against them.
- The user received a ban under Rule 0 (Don't be a dick)
- This was not because their view was unpopular or because they didn't immediately change their mind based on what other people thought.
- This was because they were spreading a misinformed view that was highly offensive to people suffering from poverty, especially in almost all cases when it isn't their fault. Even more so in this case where the target of the scam was disabled.
- I have no problem with people sharing their honest opinions and encourage it. I'm not going to delete comments just because I disagree with them. But if you're saying something that's wrong or hurtful and you get called out for it, do some research and argue back in a civil manner or step away.
The rules:
- Golden rule - don’t be a dick. If you wouldn’t say it in front of your grandmother, don’t post it.
- No bigotry - including racism, sexism, ableism, homophobia, transphobia, or xenophobia.
- Be respectful. Everyone should feel welcome here.
- No porn.
- No Ads / Spamming.
- Nothing illegal in Australia
i feel like a proper disability benefits system would simply not deduct the money from her account, and also threaten the company with criminal fraud charges
Usury laws should be applied to everything in the scummy industry targeting poor people. This shit, payday loans, consumer finance, all needs to be heavily regulated to avoid predatory behavior against the poor and disabled.
It's a scheme originally developed by the Howard government aimed to help Indigenous Australians pay off larger purchases but I somehow doubt their good intentions given the type of person John Howard was and is. In theory, it could be useful for income management but it needs to come with significant protections otherwise it's just predatory.
and we all know how much Howard cared about indigenous australians. Whether noble intent or not, the net effect is punitive and demeaning
Temporarily locking this post since the discussion is getting a bit out of hand
The post is now unlocked, please see other comment for more info
Honestly though, isn't this kind of on the customer for agreeing to it in the first place?
Some things just shouldn't be allowed, especially when this is aimed at the most vulnerable of society.
Ok, what is it specifically that shouldn't be allowed here? Renting items? Setting prices higher than somebody else?
In this case it's through the Centrelink specific Centrepay system. Given it's a government approved system they can presumably remove approval of this company for any reason, so it doesn't have to reach a level of law breaking, just an obvious to everyone ethical breach.
In any case, as stated in the article, Rents4Keep are currently being sued by ASIC for breaches of the Credit Act.
Usury is a crime in most places. This kind of transaction is just usury dressed up in the legal fiction of a rental.
I dunno, seems like a pretty big stretch to call equipment rental usury.
Not at all. A rent to own scheme is essentially legally identical to getting a seller or third party loan except for when title passes over to the consumer. In most other respects, especially in outcome, it's the same transaction dressed up specifically to avoid existing usury laws.
Even Rent4Keeps's own website calculates costs by comparing it to an installment loan for sale of goods. Doesn't get more transparent than that.
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A rent to own scheme is essentially legally identical to getting a seller or third party loan except for when title passes over to the consumer
Interesting point. Though I have to wonder if making it illegal would just change their sales pitch to permanent rental, instead of rent to own. Ultimately, I feel the solution should lie more in educating consumers on financial literacy.
Ultimately, I feel the solution should lie more in educating consumers on financial literacy.
You can crack down on predatory lending and educate consumers. However, you'll never be able to educate the average consumer to be immune from sophisticated schemes simply because most people have other things to do on life and scammers devote a lot more time creating new scams than the average person can devote to learning about avoiding scams.
Every individual is supposed to do their own research and be savvy regarding scams and ripoffs or else they deserve to be robbed with no recourse and no penalty for the robbers.
Shrug. The way I see it, they made major league purchases without the slightest market research. Why does that make them a victim, rather than just somebody with the financial wisdom of a 5 year old?
In other words you have an "I got mine" attitude about demographically vulnerable people getting exploited.
If you can't see demographically vulnerable people being exploited as a bad thing, I can't make you see it. And quite frankly I feel bad for any family members you might have, especially senior citizens, if they get taken advantage of by grifters/scammers. You'd be too busy congratulating yourself for being superior to them.
I appreciate how you keep going for the ad hominem attacks instead of trying to engage in an actual discussion. Was fun, let's do this again sometime.
I appreciate how you keep going for the ad hominem attacks
I accurately described your contempt for exploited vulnerable people and your inflated sense of superiority about their predicament.
instead of trying to engage in an actual discussion
There is no discussion you're leaving yourself open for but more congratulations of yourself for feeling superior to vulnerable exploited people.
Was fun, let's do this again sometime.
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Exactly. Houso's gonna houso. If she's going to put her whole life on new item afterpay, you deserve the stupid. This is someone who grew up in these communities and most get next gen tech and second hand/scratch and dent appliances. Just because you didn't finish school doesn't mean you can't be shrewd
are you pro-elderly people being scammed by 'tech support'?
This 100% qualifies as an unscrupulous trade practice. The pricing is exploitative targeting vulnerable people, making them sign opaque contracts money directly from disability pension and making consumers think there is some level of state approval with the centrepay thing.
It is the job of the state to protect people from these things especially considering they are operating formally.
You are the one who is uneducated for spewing dogshit like this. You are the one who needs to be sent to a re-education camp. Australians are so braindead from neoliberal ideology.
The elderly these days were early to middle aged when the internet became a thing. In the 80s and 90s there was Skase, 419, fucking beanie babies as an example. Ignorance is not an excuse.
fuck that. People should not be preyed on for not keeping up with internet trends
I am apparently the next Mussolini though, if you go by the rest of these comments. It's like nobody gives a fuck about education any more.
