Their circumstances are similar(to me an outsider), a lot of jews after the second world war were against the concept of a jewish state.
I mean the spirit is out of the bottle now, you can't put it back in regards to israel, but i don't think that a jewish state needs to exist an many jews( at least in the 50s) do not think so either. We should fight the reasons that you think that a jewish state is needed, not create a jewish state.
I mean yeah, if it wasn't for the people living there, but you would have to do a genocide to settle people there. i am against settler-colonial countries, all of them. Like i said, make it so that there is no reason for ethonstates, not create them
This is a stupid proposal, we've seen how ethnostates go, for example in Palestine. And like i said, i don't know if roma people want their own state, i can't speak for them.
I live there, it's nice but bavaria is still racist as shit and extremly conservative in many places. I know a lot of bavarians in exile who hate it too.
I am all for depopulating Lichtenstein tho, the only nice people there are already only the foreigners. It is a complete fake country that only exists to make it's elite rich
I have personal reasons for hating that country. But in generall the country is extremly rich and de facto an absolute monarchy . Any attempt at curbing the counts power or even critizing him or his friends will end with all people involved excluded from society and unable to find any normal job. There are corporations in the country that pay illegal wages, where people die or starve and the goverment doesn't do anything because the owner is well connected. All unions in the country are corporate unions. Lichtenstein is extremly racist, towards everyone not very conservative and white or lichtensteinian, speaking the wrong dialect of german will also get you excluded, just not as harsh, there is a paralell society of non lichtensteinians because of that. Their entire wealth comes from having no morals and doing the shadiest banking shit imaginable. I used to imagine getting some WWI artillery and shooting that fucking castle of the Fürst to rubble.
Many Lichtensteiner are good people, i just really wish the country wouldn't exist and were a part of Switzerland, it's deeply cursed.
Aren't Romani people traditionally itinerant/nomadic, though? I don't think that a nation state with borders necessarily makes sense for that. As far as I'm aware there's no known record of the origin (though genetic findings suggest an Indian origin) and whether it was due to forced expulsion from their homeland, whereas we know of several instances of Jews being forcefully driven out of places.
Yeah, but modern jews also don't hava a single origin anymore either. Post WWII many still saw their homelands in europe, like i said for many jews a nationstate also did not make sense.
The main difference I'm getting at, though, is not just the impossibility of finding a Romani homeland, it's that as far as we can tell, the Romani people are nomadic by choice while Jews have historically been driven out of places, so the range of solutions that make sense barely have any overlap. A nation state does make sense for Jews to end the cycle of persecution from when they are a minority in whichever area. For Romani people, who do not have any known historical homeland and have historically willingly embraced the nomadic lifestyle, a better solution would be to look at what disadvantages a lack of a homeland has caused (like lack of security, lack of international representation, lack of sovereignty), and come up with an alternative structure that provides these things while working with their nomadic lifestyle. Honestly, some sort of system like democratic confederalism that is designed to coexist alongside existing nation states (or at least to be capable of it starting out) would be a decent starting point.
You are right that the groups are different, but i don't think that in any way justifies an ethnostate
A nation state does make sense for Jews to end the cycle of persecution from when they are a minority in whichever area.
No, because to found a jewish state you have to literally become a settler-colonial society. And look we have a jewish state and it hasn't ended anti-semitism, for one any jews don't like that a genocidal colony is claiming to be their home, they already have one. Many jews interpreted the homeland in the torah as a spiritual thing rather than a geographical location.
I find your idea for roma interesting, though I honestly think that it really is not our place to debate possible solutions
I don't think it is quite clear-cut as settler colonialism when we know of several occasions where Jews did live in Israel, but were forcibly expelled by some other power, as recently as two millenia ago. This isn't like colonizing the Americas where a group of humans went there about 16,500 years ago when it was completely uninhabited, lived more or less completely isolated from the other half of the world, then 16,000 years later some other people come in boats and start murdering people and stealing the land. I think Israel certainly behaves as a settler-colonial state in some respects, but I think they honestly have a valid claim to the land, as do the Palestinians who already live there and don't have a meaningful link to any other successor state that can be implicated for the diasporas.
There were still jews in jerusalem when israel came, and those have a claim, the rest are stllers and should fuck off.
Israel is not a legitimate state, don't paint it as such.
Just because your ancestors 1000 years ago might have lived in palestine does not give you the right to do a genocide to settle a country you have no personal connection to. Israel exists because the US post WWII wanted it to, they prevented people from moving to the US and almost forced them to settle palestine. It is a product of western imperialism not anything else. Israel is murdering the indigen people of palestine and stealing their land. The israeli identity is a complete fabrication.
I'm not claiming that they have the right to displace Palestinians, I explicitly said the Palestinians also have a right to live there. I don't think settler colonial is very clear cut because they do have a historical claim to the land, however distant it might be -- but I think it is accurate to say that they are an apartheid regime where Israelis have power over the Palestinians. I think it should also be clarified that every western country refused large amounts of Jewish refugees, and given the horrid treatment that we gave many immigrant groups around that time and how we ended up rehabilitating large amounts of Nazis and recruiting them into important government positions, I don't think that having the majority of the Jewish population migrate to the US would have ended well. Like, if you think our neo-nazis are bad in our timeline, imagine how much worse it'd be in that timeline. It would literally be safer in Europe.
In any case, there is absolutely no easy answer to this conflict. It'll still be ongoing 50 years from now if humanity isn't wiped out.
I don't know nearly enough about Roma people to have any kind of opinion on that, honestly. Any take I would have would just be reactionary and pointless.
Shouldn't we also have a Roma state then?
Their circumstances are similar(to me an outsider), a lot of jews after the second world war were against the concept of a jewish state.
I mean the spirit is out of the bottle now, you can't put it back in regards to israel, but i don't think that a jewish state needs to exist an many jews( at least in the 50s) do not think so either. We should fight the reasons that you think that a jewish state is needed, not create a jewish state.
Yes. How would you like southern Germany?
I mean yeah, if it wasn't for the people living there, but you would have to do a genocide to settle people there. i am against settler-colonial countries, all of them. Like i said, make it so that there is no reason for ethonstates, not create them
This is a stupid proposal, we've seen how ethnostates go, for example in Palestine. And like i said, i don't know if roma people want their own state, i can't speak for them.
(Bavaria is still shit tough)
Have you been? It's fucking beautiful (not talking about Bavarians tho)
I live there, it's nice but bavaria is still racist as shit and extremly conservative in many places. I know a lot of bavarians in exile who hate it too.
I am all for depopulating Lichtenstein tho, the only nice people there are already only the foreigners. It is a complete fake country that only exists to make it's elite rich
What did Liechtensteiners do though? Germany at least earned this
I have personal reasons for hating that country. But in generall the country is extremly rich and de facto an absolute monarchy . Any attempt at curbing the counts power or even critizing him or his friends will end with all people involved excluded from society and unable to find any normal job. There are corporations in the country that pay illegal wages, where people die or starve and the goverment doesn't do anything because the owner is well connected. All unions in the country are corporate unions. Lichtenstein is extremly racist, towards everyone not very conservative and white or lichtensteinian, speaking the wrong dialect of german will also get you excluded, just not as harsh, there is a paralell society of non lichtensteinians because of that. Their entire wealth comes from having no morals and doing the shadiest banking shit imaginable. I used to imagine getting some WWI artillery and shooting that fucking castle of the Fürst to rubble.
Many Lichtensteiner are good people, i just really wish the country wouldn't exist and were a part of Switzerland, it's deeply cursed.
Aren't Romani people traditionally itinerant/nomadic, though? I don't think that a nation state with borders necessarily makes sense for that. As far as I'm aware there's no known record of the origin (though genetic findings suggest an Indian origin) and whether it was due to forced expulsion from their homeland, whereas we know of several instances of Jews being forcefully driven out of places.
Yeah, but modern jews also don't hava a single origin anymore either. Post WWII many still saw their homelands in europe, like i said for many jews a nationstate also did not make sense.
The main difference I'm getting at, though, is not just the impossibility of finding a Romani homeland, it's that as far as we can tell, the Romani people are nomadic by choice while Jews have historically been driven out of places, so the range of solutions that make sense barely have any overlap. A nation state does make sense for Jews to end the cycle of persecution from when they are a minority in whichever area. For Romani people, who do not have any known historical homeland and have historically willingly embraced the nomadic lifestyle, a better solution would be to look at what disadvantages a lack of a homeland has caused (like lack of security, lack of international representation, lack of sovereignty), and come up with an alternative structure that provides these things while working with their nomadic lifestyle. Honestly, some sort of system like democratic confederalism that is designed to coexist alongside existing nation states (or at least to be capable of it starting out) would be a decent starting point.
Incidentally, I also just learned that the Soviet Union tried to essentially create a Romani SSR, but it didn't really work very well.
You are right that the groups are different, but i don't think that in any way justifies an ethnostate
No, because to found a jewish state you have to literally become a settler-colonial society. And look we have a jewish state and it hasn't ended anti-semitism, for one any jews don't like that a genocidal colony is claiming to be their home, they already have one. Many jews interpreted the homeland in the torah as a spiritual thing rather than a geographical location.
I find your idea for roma interesting, though I honestly think that it really is not our place to debate possible solutions
I don't think it is quite clear-cut as settler colonialism when we know of several occasions where Jews did live in Israel, but were forcibly expelled by some other power, as recently as two millenia ago. This isn't like colonizing the Americas where a group of humans went there about 16,500 years ago when it was completely uninhabited, lived more or less completely isolated from the other half of the world, then 16,000 years later some other people come in boats and start murdering people and stealing the land. I think Israel certainly behaves as a settler-colonial state in some respects, but I think they honestly have a valid claim to the land, as do the Palestinians who already live there and don't have a meaningful link to any other successor state that can be implicated for the diasporas.
There were still jews in jerusalem when israel came, and those have a claim, the rest are stllers and should fuck off.
Israel is not a legitimate state, don't paint it as such.
Just because your ancestors 1000 years ago might have lived in palestine does not give you the right to do a genocide to settle a country you have no personal connection to. Israel exists because the US post WWII wanted it to, they prevented people from moving to the US and almost forced them to settle palestine. It is a product of western imperialism not anything else. Israel is murdering the indigen people of palestine and stealing their land. The israeli identity is a complete fabrication.
I'm not claiming that they have the right to displace Palestinians, I explicitly said the Palestinians also have a right to live there. I don't think settler colonial is very clear cut because they do have a historical claim to the land, however distant it might be -- but I think it is accurate to say that they are an apartheid regime where Israelis have power over the Palestinians. I think it should also be clarified that every western country refused large amounts of Jewish refugees, and given the horrid treatment that we gave many immigrant groups around that time and how we ended up rehabilitating large amounts of Nazis and recruiting them into important government positions, I don't think that having the majority of the Jewish population migrate to the US would have ended well. Like, if you think our neo-nazis are bad in our timeline, imagine how much worse it'd be in that timeline. It would literally be safer in Europe.
In any case, there is absolutely no easy answer to this conflict. It'll still be ongoing 50 years from now if humanity isn't wiped out.
They don't have a historical claim. It does matter how distant it is.
I don't know nearly enough about Roma people to have any kind of opinion on that, honestly. Any take I would have would just be reactionary and pointless.