What's the argument that we're like ants to them? Would we be unable to understand their motivations and goals, how they communicate with each other, etc? I don't buy it.
Sure a biological brain is slower than a computer, and humans can't see gamma/xray/microwave/ultraviolet/infrared/radio waves without assistance, but would that really change anything?
Consider that we're pretty damn sure lots of animals around us have language. Dolphins, chimps, elephants, parrots(shit, most communal birds really), meerkats, hell, I'd include eusocial insects. And we're nowhere even close to being able to communicate to them in a meaningful fashion.
Now consider a species that evolved in a completely different environment, from completely unrelated ancestors, with completely different architecture of their minds, possibly running with completely different chemistry.
I have doubts we could talk to aliens even if they wanted to as well.
Dolphins just want fish, friends, sex, no pollution, etc, and they can't meaningfully interact with the world outside the water. They say things along those lines, and not much outside of that. It would be cool to understand exactly what they say, but they're not talking about nuclear fusion behind our backs.
For better or for worse, humans evolved to be able to understand much more. The post above implies there are "things humans can't understand", which is what I disagree with. Anything physically possible/solvable should be understandable to the human brain with enough tools. Humans understand chemistry to an extent that they could figure out an alien's biology given enough resources and time. In this way, the human brain is analogous to a universal Turing machine, and sadly dolphin brains are not yet.
Not trying to be human-centric, but I would love an example of something that is fundamentally outside the range of human understanding that hypothetical aliens could understand that makes us like ants to them in the way that even if they understand our language and motivations, we could never understand theirs. I think it's all handwaving.
Not to be glib, but I'm not capable of giving you an example of thing humans can't think of. Like, that's kind of the point I'm making.
I have strong objections to the idea they human brain being capable of simulating a universal Turing machine is actually helpful for communication like that. The few pounds of wetware we have, even in aggregate, is no guarantee we'd be able to simulate their mind-spaces in any reasonable finite time. And even if we could there's no guarantee we'd have similar enough qualia interpretation to make communication meaningful.
Like, in a Mary's box sort of way, saying 'Dolphin thought consists of Water, Sex, Food' seems dismissive to me. I will never experience Dolphin qualia, I will never experience Dolphin thought. We can understand their motivations in abstract as those things sure, I like to think they tell stories about and have group opinions of humans. but that's a long way from being able to communicate any of the strange thoughts humans operate on.
I'm saying that you can't fathom an idea that the human brain is useless against because such a thing does not exist. Here's an attempt anyway.
The universe is made of matter, it's all that exists, and it's the interaction between the matter that caused the brain to evolve and exist like it does. From the brain there are emergent concepts like love. Assume the brain has reached a point of diminishing returns, so the next step might be an entity created with computing technology, which thinks faster and has better sensors and communicates with almost unlimited bandwidth with at the speed of light, and assume immortality through replaceable parts.
Imagine that from the interaction between these lifeforms comes emergent concepts similar to love that we have no words for because the emergent behavior doesn't emerge on humanity's level, but only on a level for immortal creative compassionate calculating machines. Or imagine such lifeforms harness all the energy in a star system or galaxy or galaxy cluster and use it to make a cool machine or a new universe with different rules than ours somehow. I think a capable science fiction writer could write a story explaining what it's like between these lifeforms, or even describe the new universe and some emergent behaviors unique to that universe, and we could understand, whether or not the lifeforms exist or universe exist. (I'm about to be rambling even more, so I'll stop.)
Dolphin qualia is dope, and while I would love to swim in the ocean as a dolphin, it's for dolphins to do that. It's a fine way to exist and there's nothing meant to be dismissive when I say that. Are dolphins capable of understanding and creating fusion? More power to them! :pog-dolphin:
Alright I get what you're saying. Yeah dolphins are dope, and if we could uplift them to understand fusion and maybe us, that be doing daddy Posadas proud.
I guess what I'm saying is, we don't have a lot of good directions to go in for communication with dolphins right now. Like, I feel like it hubris to say we could ever get to that point, just because it would be so far beyond what we know we can do. And I'm pretty sure we'd have had fusion by now if it got anything more than shoestring budget.
And if I apply that forwards, if we run across some hyper-culture 5th international, I'm not sure they could communicate to us if they wanted to.
Like, our greater scope of intelligence hasn't given us a better command of interspecies communication, hell I'm not sure our command of language is necessarily better than a dolphins, maybe it's just abstract reasoning or lack of mathematics or the lack of grippy appendages holding them back from fusion. We just don't know. It's an unknown unknown. Maybe we too lack something that would let us talk to aliens.
The analogy is just supposed to put in terms how weak and insignificant we are in comparison to space-faring star-jumping aliens. I do not mean that we are literally ants to them, rather just so (relatively) weak and insignificant that they wouldn't even bother with us.
What's the argument that we're like ants to them? Would we be unable to understand their motivations and goals, how they communicate with each other, etc? I don't buy it.
Sure a biological brain is slower than a computer, and humans can't see gamma/xray/microwave/ultraviolet/infrared/radio waves without assistance, but would that really change anything?
Consider that we're pretty damn sure lots of animals around us have language. Dolphins, chimps, elephants, parrots(shit, most communal birds really), meerkats, hell, I'd include eusocial insects. And we're nowhere even close to being able to communicate to them in a meaningful fashion.
Now consider a species that evolved in a completely different environment, from completely unrelated ancestors, with completely different architecture of their minds, possibly running with completely different chemistry.
I have doubts we could talk to aliens even if they wanted to as well.
Dolphins just want fish, friends, sex, no pollution, etc, and they can't meaningfully interact with the world outside the water. They say things along those lines, and not much outside of that. It would be cool to understand exactly what they say, but they're not talking about nuclear fusion behind our backs.
For better or for worse, humans evolved to be able to understand much more. The post above implies there are "things humans can't understand", which is what I disagree with. Anything physically possible/solvable should be understandable to the human brain with enough tools. Humans understand chemistry to an extent that they could figure out an alien's biology given enough resources and time. In this way, the human brain is analogous to a universal Turing machine, and sadly dolphin brains are not yet.
Not trying to be human-centric, but I would love an example of something that is fundamentally outside the range of human understanding that hypothetical aliens could understand that makes us like ants to them in the way that even if they understand our language and motivations, we could never understand theirs. I think it's all handwaving.
Not to be glib, but I'm not capable of giving you an example of thing humans can't think of. Like, that's kind of the point I'm making.
I have strong objections to the idea they human brain being capable of simulating a universal Turing machine is actually helpful for communication like that. The few pounds of wetware we have, even in aggregate, is no guarantee we'd be able to simulate their mind-spaces in any reasonable finite time. And even if we could there's no guarantee we'd have similar enough qualia interpretation to make communication meaningful.
Like, in a Mary's box sort of way, saying 'Dolphin thought consists of Water, Sex, Food' seems dismissive to me. I will never experience Dolphin qualia, I will never experience Dolphin thought. We can understand their motivations in abstract as those things sure, I like to think they tell stories about and have group opinions of humans. but that's a long way from being able to communicate any of the strange thoughts humans operate on.
I'm saying that you can't fathom an idea that the human brain is useless against because such a thing does not exist. Here's an attempt anyway.
The universe is made of matter, it's all that exists, and it's the interaction between the matter that caused the brain to evolve and exist like it does. From the brain there are emergent concepts like love. Assume the brain has reached a point of diminishing returns, so the next step might be an entity created with computing technology, which thinks faster and has better sensors and communicates with almost unlimited bandwidth with at the speed of light, and assume immortality through replaceable parts.
Imagine that from the interaction between these lifeforms comes emergent concepts similar to love that we have no words for because the emergent behavior doesn't emerge on humanity's level, but only on a level for immortal creative compassionate calculating machines. Or imagine such lifeforms harness all the energy in a star system or galaxy or galaxy cluster and use it to make a cool machine or a new universe with different rules than ours somehow. I think a capable science fiction writer could write a story explaining what it's like between these lifeforms, or even describe the new universe and some emergent behaviors unique to that universe, and we could understand, whether or not the lifeforms exist or universe exist. (I'm about to be rambling even more, so I'll stop.)
Dolphin qualia is dope, and while I would love to swim in the ocean as a dolphin, it's for dolphins to do that. It's a fine way to exist and there's nothing meant to be dismissive when I say that. Are dolphins capable of understanding and creating fusion? More power to them! :pog-dolphin:
Alright I get what you're saying. Yeah dolphins are dope, and if we could uplift them to understand fusion and maybe us, that be doing daddy Posadas proud.
I guess what I'm saying is, we don't have a lot of good directions to go in for communication with dolphins right now. Like, I feel like it hubris to say we could ever get to that point, just because it would be so far beyond what we know we can do. And I'm pretty sure we'd have had fusion by now if it got anything more than shoestring budget.
And if I apply that forwards, if we run across some hyper-culture 5th international, I'm not sure they could communicate to us if they wanted to.
Like, our greater scope of intelligence hasn't given us a better command of interspecies communication, hell I'm not sure our command of language is necessarily better than a dolphins, maybe it's just abstract reasoning or lack of mathematics or the lack of grippy appendages holding them back from fusion. We just don't know. It's an unknown unknown. Maybe we too lack something that would let us talk to aliens.
The analogy is just supposed to put in terms how weak and insignificant we are in comparison to space-faring star-jumping aliens. I do not mean that we are literally ants to them, rather just so (relatively) weak and insignificant that they wouldn't even bother with us.