this is undoubtedly going to sound pretty snobbish and pretentious but usually I judge how left someone truly is by their stance on Israel and Palestine. If they even so much as try to both sides it, I just assume a lot about them. I don't hate them or anything, but this is by far one of the most paramount issues of our time and if you truly call yourself an anti-imperialist or some variation of socialist or communist and also both sides/support Israel, I'll take a lot of what they say with a huge cup of salt. It's a tricky topic to tackle at first for westerners or really anyone who pays too much attention to mainstream media, but it isn't so complicated doing a little bit of reading and understanding can't give you a bigger picture and perspective of what is actually going down there.
I mean, my take on North Korea is that it sucks, but it's because we made it suck, literally destroyed every building and killed 20% of the population. Like remember how fascist things got after 3 American buildings got hit by planes? The USA lost its shit even more than it already had. Now imagine instead of 3 buildings, it was all buildings, literally every skyscraper, every home, every shop, hit by an airplane and burnt to the ground. And if we lost like, 75 million people.
The USA in that circumstance would nuke the world - just end life on Earth immediately. We'd be choked out by our own nuclear ash. The DPRK reacted absolutely tamely in comparison, and while most of the propaganda about them is just unhinged lies, it's not like, a good place with a good system. It's approximately the best it could be though, given what happened.
It's a lot more of an obfuscated place than Israel. The lies about Israel are so blatant, and the truths are really so bare. It's right in front of us. That's why it's a better litmus test.
The lies about Israel are so blatant, and the truths are really so bare. It’s right in front of us.
This just makes it an easier test to pass. To find people who are actually serious about anti-imperialism, using the DPRK as a gauge actually challenges people to go against the overwhelming negative public perception. It was more difficult to challenge propaganda on Iraq BEFORE the US went in and that was when it mattered the most. It's easy to go along with the herd and sit there after the fact of millions of destroyed lives and condemn the US. Such a weak anti-imperialism can't prevent wars, all it does is react after the US is done wrecking a place.
That's fair. The problem is values alone is what the US weaponizes so effectively. They throw up atrocity propaganda in Iraq and people with the correct values fall in line. Knowledge is what prevents a person from being used by the US.
I didn't say that at all, I simply said I'll take what they with more caution. This conflict has been going on for a very long time now and if you're serious about being an anti-imperialist, you should not be supporting Israel. The US doesn't give billions to the DPRK, if you're an American leftist and you support the idea of the US giving death and destruction to Palestine, I will have reserved thoughts. Again, I don't hate people who don't get it, or get it yet.
No I mean like why choose Israel-Palestine as the conflict for gauging how serious someone is as an anti-imperialist? Why not choose the DPRK as a gauge instead? It's demonized to a far greater extent than anything else, including PRC. Do you think it's unreasonable to use the DPRK as a gauge given the extra difficulty in breaking past related propaganda, while Palestine is much easier?
I really don't agree with your take that DPRK is more demonized to a "far greater extent" considering there is an actual war with people dying constantly in Palestine. They are both demonized in their own ways. The media/state department demonize the DPRK, but south korea is not actively invading and killing people like Israel is to Palestine. Both supported by the US, one is definitely worse right now. Both the DPRK and Palestine have extreme amounts of propaganda associated with them, and there is nuance here with how sanctions work, but currently, right now, I do fear for Palestine and its people greatly because there is an actual active war being waged on them. The DPRK is at least semi-protected by China, and while the cease fire never truly ended there isn't the same type of escalation involved the same way it is in Palestine. I hope you can understand what I'm trying to say, I don't think it also has to be some white or black scenario where if someone has a shitty opinion on Palestine but a good opinion on DPRK, I just don't just throw out all of their opinions because their opinion sucks on Palestine. I would absolutely accept that the person has at least tried to understand the situation they maybe cared about more in that situation. It's just an arbitrary bar I've come to use on people if I'm unsure of their standing. If I get to know them more, this can also easily change, just as I can probably explain to them why I think they should reconsider how they feel about both those conflicts.
The reason I say that DPRK is demonized to a greater extent is because they aren't placed in a victim role in western imagination. How many people before this week do you think have even heard of the word 'Palestine' compared to 'North Korea'? The reason DPRK is faring better is because they can defend themselves with a state, not so much due to the propaganda leveled at it. I agree with everything else you're saying, I was just curious why you didn't use the more (in my mind) demonized gauge.
I can't really break down exactly why I always think or do what I do in a certain way tbh with you. But I do think that Palestine is heavily associated with Hamas which has become another word for "terrorism" in the US at the same time. Also because I know actual Palestinians and they also helped radicalize me when I was still figuring things out, and it has made it just slightly more personal. I've witnessed the tears and stories of explaining to me why they can't hire a babysitter because they're so worried if one of the parents isn't with their child at all times they will be lost or separated forever. Shit like that effected me on a much more personal level. I'm constantly more worried about the people of Palestine, I think the DPRK has for the most part, done an incredible job providing for the people as best they can with what they have. I don't think the average person in the DPRK live in constant fear like they do in Palestine. The DPRK does have a much more sizeable standing army at the very least, Palestine smuggles or jerryrigs everything they make, it's a bit harder for them to defend themselves.
I think things could be a lot better if the US wasn't such a barbaric country for both of those places too. But Palestine is on my mind a lot more than the DPRK, and personal bias is a thing too. I know at least one person who has actually been able to visit the DPRK on a tourism type deal, but they were more in it for the thrill of going there than having some other feelings for wanting to be there/check it out.
Yeah, this is why I said the DPRK was far more demonized to @JoesFrackinJack. You get hostile reactions, you get weird looks for praising the DPRK (North Korea). You bring up Palestine in the US and more likely than not the reply you get is "What's Palestine?"
this is undoubtedly going to sound pretty snobbish and pretentious but usually I judge how left someone truly is by their stance on Israel and Palestine. If they even so much as try to both sides it, I just assume a lot about them. I don't hate them or anything, but this is by far one of the most paramount issues of our time and if you truly call yourself an anti-imperialist or some variation of socialist or communist and also both sides/support Israel, I'll take a lot of what they say with a huge cup of salt. It's a tricky topic to tackle at first for westerners or really anyone who pays too much attention to mainstream media, but it isn't so complicated doing a little bit of reading and understanding can't give you a bigger picture and perspective of what is actually going down there.
Why not go straight for the DPRK? Propaganda too thick such that you can't reasonably expect someone to have a good take?
I mean, my take on North Korea is that it sucks, but it's because we made it suck, literally destroyed every building and killed 20% of the population. Like remember how fascist things got after 3 American buildings got hit by planes? The USA lost its shit even more than it already had. Now imagine instead of 3 buildings, it was all buildings, literally every skyscraper, every home, every shop, hit by an airplane and burnt to the ground. And if we lost like, 75 million people.
The USA in that circumstance would nuke the world - just end life on Earth immediately. We'd be choked out by our own nuclear ash. The DPRK reacted absolutely tamely in comparison, and while most of the propaganda about them is just unhinged lies, it's not like, a good place with a good system. It's approximately the best it could be though, given what happened.
It's a lot more of an obfuscated place than Israel. The lies about Israel are so blatant, and the truths are really so bare. It's right in front of us. That's why it's a better litmus test.
This just makes it an easier test to pass. To find people who are actually serious about anti-imperialism, using the DPRK as a gauge actually challenges people to go against the overwhelming negative public perception. It was more difficult to challenge propaganda on Iraq BEFORE the US went in and that was when it mattered the most. It's easy to go along with the herd and sit there after the fact of millions of destroyed lives and condemn the US. Such a weak anti-imperialism can't prevent wars, all it does is react after the US is done wrecking a place.
All I'm saying is that Israel tests a person's values, DPRK tests a person's knowledge.
That's fair. The problem is values alone is what the US weaponizes so effectively. They throw up atrocity propaganda in Iraq and people with the correct values fall in line. Knowledge is what prevents a person from being used by the US.
True we need both
I didn't say that at all, I simply said I'll take what they with more caution. This conflict has been going on for a very long time now and if you're serious about being an anti-imperialist, you should not be supporting Israel. The US doesn't give billions to the DPRK, if you're an American leftist and you support the idea of the US giving death and destruction to Palestine, I will have reserved thoughts. Again, I don't hate people who don't get it, or get it yet.
No I mean like why choose Israel-Palestine as the conflict for gauging how serious someone is as an anti-imperialist? Why not choose the DPRK as a gauge instead? It's demonized to a far greater extent than anything else, including PRC. Do you think it's unreasonable to use the DPRK as a gauge given the extra difficulty in breaking past related propaganda, while Palestine is much easier?
I really don't agree with your take that DPRK is more demonized to a "far greater extent" considering there is an actual war with people dying constantly in Palestine. They are both demonized in their own ways. The media/state department demonize the DPRK, but south korea is not actively invading and killing people like Israel is to Palestine. Both supported by the US, one is definitely worse right now. Both the DPRK and Palestine have extreme amounts of propaganda associated with them, and there is nuance here with how sanctions work, but currently, right now, I do fear for Palestine and its people greatly because there is an actual active war being waged on them. The DPRK is at least semi-protected by China, and while the cease fire never truly ended there isn't the same type of escalation involved the same way it is in Palestine. I hope you can understand what I'm trying to say, I don't think it also has to be some white or black scenario where if someone has a shitty opinion on Palestine but a good opinion on DPRK, I just don't just throw out all of their opinions because their opinion sucks on Palestine. I would absolutely accept that the person has at least tried to understand the situation they maybe cared about more in that situation. It's just an arbitrary bar I've come to use on people if I'm unsure of their standing. If I get to know them more, this can also easily change, just as I can probably explain to them why I think they should reconsider how they feel about both those conflicts.
The reason I say that DPRK is demonized to a greater extent is because they aren't placed in a victim role in western imagination. How many people before this week do you think have even heard of the word 'Palestine' compared to 'North Korea'? The reason DPRK is faring better is because they can defend themselves with a state, not so much due to the propaganda leveled at it. I agree with everything else you're saying, I was just curious why you didn't use the more (in my mind) demonized gauge.
I can't really break down exactly why I always think or do what I do in a certain way tbh with you. But I do think that Palestine is heavily associated with Hamas which has become another word for "terrorism" in the US at the same time. Also because I know actual Palestinians and they also helped radicalize me when I was still figuring things out, and it has made it just slightly more personal. I've witnessed the tears and stories of explaining to me why they can't hire a babysitter because they're so worried if one of the parents isn't with their child at all times they will be lost or separated forever. Shit like that effected me on a much more personal level. I'm constantly more worried about the people of Palestine, I think the DPRK has for the most part, done an incredible job providing for the people as best they can with what they have. I don't think the average person in the DPRK live in constant fear like they do in Palestine. The DPRK does have a much more sizeable standing army at the very least, Palestine smuggles or jerryrigs everything they make, it's a bit harder for them to defend themselves.
I think things could be a lot better if the US wasn't such a barbaric country for both of those places too. But Palestine is on my mind a lot more than the DPRK, and personal bias is a thing too. I know at least one person who has actually been able to visit the DPRK on a tourism type deal, but they were more in it for the thrill of going there than having some other feelings for wanting to be there/check it out.
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Yeah, this is why I said the DPRK was far more demonized to @JoesFrackinJack. You get hostile reactions, you get weird looks for praising the DPRK (North Korea). You bring up Palestine in the US and more likely than not the reply you get is "What's Palestine?"
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It would put you off because you expect them to sound like radlib "anarchists" or because you expect them to know better already?
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